Leaking Water

Carlton

Thanks for all your help. The professional came out today and guess what...........even though the expansion tank was only a month old, it was no good and had to be replaced. Luckily, it was under warranty and the professional did not charge labor (again) for that project. They had installed it a month ago anyway.

ALSO, the PRV was bad--it would not reset/reseat (apparently it rotted out), so it had to be replaced as well. All is fine now, h20 pressure holds steady at 15 psi and no discharge. Hey Eatherton, good thing you warned me not to try to rest that valve because it would have stayed open. Clanging in pipes stopped too......seems that the high pressure used to create a "hammer" when the regulator valves closed causing a reverb in the hot water lines. All's well and I am happy.

Thanks again guys (Eatherton and Terry, in particular) for your excellent information.

Carlton

Leaking Water--lay person here--with picture

I just discovered that my hydronic system is letting water out onto the floor through what looks like some kind of overflow pipe. I don't know how to describe it, so I attached a picture of my system. In the picture, locate the blue plastic bucket (that I put there to catch the water) and look slightly upward to find the pipe. I also saw my pressure drop down to about 5psi. (I have a new, working extrol, just installed.) I plan to call someone tomorrow to check it, but in the meantime, does anyone have a clue as to what the problem may be? Is this a huge problem or a quick fix? Thanks. Let me know if you need close-ups.

See picture

Unknown

Was the old Extrol full of water

when you changed it ? And did the pressure stay at 5 psi after you changed the Extrol ?

What could be happening , and we see alot , is that the indirect water heater will develop a leak internally in the coil , and introduce street pressure into the boiler - kicking open the relief valve which is normally a 30 psi relief .

Also make sure your pressure reducing valve is working - the boiler pressure usually runs from 12 to 20 psi .

Carlton

Thanks very much for your reply. I had the extrol professionally changed about a month and a half ago. I believe it had been full of water. Upon change, the pressure was about 15. I watched it for a few days after the extrol was changed and it never went below 11 or 12 and never above 16 or so. I am confident that there is not a high pressure problem.

What seems to happen is this: after the boiler kicks off, the pressure falls to around 5psi and the water starts running out. While the boiler runs for a bit, the pressure goes back up around 12 - 15 psi (at least some of the time) and the water does not run or drip.

Any additional thoughts based on the new information?

Steve Eayrs

It will either be....

the fill valve is bad and letting house pressure through, or maybe the relief valve is bad, exp. tank air pressure wrong?

OR...........Could be the fill valve is installed in the wrong place, and drawing water into the system when the pump kicks on and creates a vaccume. Is the fill valve installed in the return of the boiler, on the suction side of the boiler pump.?

It also looks like you have a pipe tee'd into the return, on the boiler side of the pump. Wheres it coming from? Does it have its own pump?

Also, if you are having other problems, like air in system, etc., you could put the pump on the supply of the boiler, after the exp. tank. May take care of the problem, if the fill valve is on the return, before the pump.

ALSO.....The only reason W-M puts their pumps on the return is to make it easier to crate. No law says it has to stay there, and in fact there should be a law against it.

I believe they have this piped better on the newer W-M gold oil-fired boiler.

A parting, unrelated comment on the gold boiler....I really wonder why they put a hinged/opening on the front of these boilers? You can't clean them from there. Still have to take the top off the boiler for that. Makes sense on horizonal flue type of boilers, but was this done just to say we have a door on ours too? Makes about as much sense as installing a door, that opens up to nothing more than a block wall....Or maybe they realize that theirs a good chance of needing to replace the liner in the combustion chamber, after "slipping", when trying to brush out the tight/sooted combustion chamber?

Steve

Carlton

Steve,

Thanks for your thoughts. You seem to have so much information. However, and with all due respect, I am an ordinary layperson and most of what you said and asked flew over my head. That's why I attached the picture to see if a professional like you could spot something. I am really clueless. I could certainly submit closeups on any specific part of the system.

I am having air in the system, I think. The pipes frequently clang when the furnace kicks off....though now that I think about it, I haven't heard a clang in the last few days....and the water probably started leaking a day or two ago. I just noticed it tonight. There is also gurgling--I hear water filling up in the pipes when the boiler kicks on.

Steve Eayrs

Carlton

Its really hard to know for sure what your problem is, without looking at it. I would recommend having someone look at it. Maybe the professional that changed out the exp. tank just missed seeing the other problems, after he found the "obvious" exp. tank full of water,........or maybe he is not really not a professional, but someone who does tuneups, and some hydronics.
If you were to mention where you live, I'm sure some of the goo folks who visit here could tell you who knows their stuff, in your area. Unless you live around Homer Alaska, I'm out of your area.
Steve

Terry

dont think its the relief (prv pipeed to floor on opposite side of boiler.

fill valve must be ok. doesnt creep (as per HO).

perhaps a close up of EXACTLY where the leaking is occuring may help.

Terry

Don_2

??

> dont think its the relief (prv pipeed to floor on

> opposite side of boiler.

>

> fill valve must be

> ok. doesnt creep (as per HO).

>

> perhaps a close

> up of EXACTLY where the leaking is occuring may

> help.

>

> Terry

Don_2

Never mind

Don_2

Don_2

Sorry !!

Carlton

Terry,

Here is a closer shot. Note the relief valve to which the green tag/label is attached which is connected to the discharge pipe emptying out into the blue bucket. There is also another safety valve (it looks like to me) of a different type that is to the right side of the boiler, above the red shutoff switch.

Does this closeup inspire any further thoughts?

Thanks for your time.

[Deleted User]

Inspired thoughts...

Ain't technology something...

The device that is leaking is a presure relief valve. As its name implies, its function is one of relieveing excees built up pressure. If in fact it has actuated, it indicates a problem that needs the attention of a qualified technician. Sometimes, the relief valve can be reset, but you must be cautious that the boiler is cool, and that the pressure is not too high. If you can meet these conditions, and you lift up on the little silver lever on top of the relief valve and let it SNAP closed, it MIGHT reset itself. It may also stick in the open position, in which case you will need to shut of the water and call in an expert.

The fact that the relief valve has actuated indicates that the boiler was seeing excess pressure, which could come from a water logged expansion tank, or a defective pressure regulation valve. The other relief valve that you referenced near the red switch is actually a backflow prevention device, and that is where you'd have to shut off the water if the relief valve sticks in the open position (blue wheel handled valve). If you shut off the water, make sure you also turn of the electrical power (red switch).

It is entirely possible that the expansion tanks diaphragm has lost its proper air charge (doubtful for new tank) and may need to be recharged, or may have failed completely (extremely doubtful)and needs to be replaced, or the diaphragm is stuck (likely) and not allowing any expanding water to enter.

It's air side should be charged to 12 PSI with the water side at 0 PSI. If everything is working correctly, the system should refill to around 12 PSI cold, and will be slightly higher when hot.

It could also be the pressure regulation valve simply not shutting off and allowing system pressure to over fill.

I would not suggest that you attempt repairs or replacement on your own. It can be hot, and messy.

Let us know how you fair.

ME

Terry

PRV

yes it is the Press releif.
What I thought was the PRV is actually the BFP (back flow preventer).

If the PRV is leaking continuous. sediment (coke bottles & 2x4's) may have got stuck in diapram causing continuous leaking. (replace PRV)

if it is only leaking when system heats/pressures up.. the expansion tank integrity/sizing/precharge should be checked.

if the PRV blows off (set to 30psi) and the gauge is not reading more than 20psi. I would suspect the gauge is faulty.

GL
Terry

Carlton

Thanks so much!! I will be much more confident talking to the professional when I call tomorrow.

I would be happy to return you some help in my area of expertise. I am a corporate attorney. If you have question about contracts and related legal matters, I would be happy to help you out.

Carlton

Thanks so much!! I will be much more confident talking to the professional when I call tomorrow.

I would be happy to return you some help in my area of expertise. I am a corporate attorney. If you have question about contracts and related legal matters, I would be happy to help you out.

[Deleted User]

Thanks...

but no thanks :-)

I'm already surrounded by attornies.

Let us know what your technician finds out, and send him to The Wall.

ME

robert griggs

had the same problem today

Relief valve was constantly dripping. I drained the expansion tank, changed both the relief valve and pressure reducing valve, and everything was working fine. Went to snake the drain on the laundry sink, was having a hard time, and about an hour and a half later, just as I was done, I noticed a lot of water around the boiler. While I was working I did notice a lot of air in the heat pipes (I left the system running to make sure I would not get a callback to bleed the system).

I checked the pressure, and it was fine. I touched the supply pipe and almost burned my hand. I got my thermometer and drained a little water out and the temp. of the water was 190*. The high limit was set at 175*. No matter what I did, the burner would not shut off. About 15 minutes later, I went to test the temp. of the water again but only steam came out. The gas valve was not shutting off at all. The only time it shut off was when the t-stat was satisfied and broke the circuit.

No one is living here now, but they stop by once or twice a week to check on the house. Now I know why there was an old circulator and lots of circulator coupling and impellers laying all over the place.

I had to shut the heat off for the night. Tomorrow I am going to try to find a 50-year old gas valve for a Crane boiler. I don't think I will have too much luck, as I have never seen one like this- The high limit setting is built in to the gas valve (its a White-Rodgers), and it has a wire running to a probe in the boiler.

I learned my lesson to not assume it is the obvious all the time, and to have patience and watch the system and see how it works.

Good luck with your problem, let us know how it turns out.

[Deleted User]

I'm glad...

you got it resolved. Did you relay the story of going to the internet to your service tech?

What's really amazing, is that probably 5 years ago, what you did would have been unthinkable. Take a picture of a problem, take the picture to the internet and find a solution...

Technology, ain't it somethin'!!

ME