Munchkin / Trinity heat exchanger cleaning tool?

Big Bill

Seen at ISH.
Made me quite queasy.
Made me feel XTREME uneasy.

When I asked 'em what
they were for,
they said,
"Sir, to clean with,
sure! ............. For,
if you don't,
they die".

"EVERY one?"
"No, not so many,
but it's true,
they will die.
Plenty."

So I asked
"What else?
Please tell me."
Showed me
ACID PUMP.......
near SOLD me,
since, they said, "The HX blocking
burns out fast once it gets rocking."
Thus they've learned to wash them often
on the gas side and the, sopping,
wet side.
"Cause if you don't,
you might be mopping
up a big mess.
Profits dropping,
when the failures
get to hopping!"
Walked a few aisles. Came back,
stopping,
once more to ask questions, wond'ring,
"Why would folks buy,
intensive labor loving stuff, if something
better could be had?"

What they said
made me most weepy
since its why
I bought...."the CHEAPY".

Mi39ke_2

Any Other Experience????

Gotta keep this thread at the top, as my brother installed a Munchkin and has had trouble getting advice on how to deal with the heat exchanger "build up." The unit has been great with regards to energy savings, but is very poor when considering service problems and lack of interest from the manufacturer.

Mi39ke

[Deleted User]

I'm a guessin'

it has to do with your gassin'. The couple I've pulled down were perfectly clean on the inside, save for a little bit of loose white dust.

As for the water side, if you're not pumping fresh water through it, lime scale accumulation on the inside of the heat exchanger ought to be negligible (did I spell that right) and or nil (pretty sure that one's spelled right).

I suspect the gas in Europe is dirty'er than our'n is. But that is pure conjecture on my part.

Still, proof is in the pudding. And my pudding's clean. :-)

ME

ScottMP

Mark

I think you and I had this conversation and it was my understanding that the gas in Europe has a higher sulfer content than ours does.

I have taken out many older gas applainces that had minor build up after 20 odd years of service. Why would this be any different with a Stainless Steel HX ? It seems the monitor has a longer service record, has that had a cleaning issue ?

Time will tell, but I feel with proper combustion air this will be a non-issue.

Scott

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hot_rod

water side build up

is directly related to the water YOU run through it. Low mass, low water content boilers are all sensitive to this, includind the instantanous products that are growing in popularity.

Low mass copper tube boilers have proved this over and over for the past 20 years.

The INSTALLER must be aware of what the system is being filled with. Have the fill water tested if you don't know its hardness, TDS, ph, etc.

This is why I am always harping about proper flush and cleaning as well as proper fill water.

With all this in mind, I still fell hydronic system conditioner fluids should be a must with all the "waterside" sensitive devices on the market.

It is such an inexpensive step to assure good heat transfer and long life, as well as "fixing" questionable quality water with ph buffere and componente to keep minerals in suspension instead of coating the HX's.

I think the manufactures, of these current products, need to address this better in the installation and training classes, in my opinion.

I agree with the others also, dirty gas and out of adjustment burner mixtures leads to dirty fireside HX. You really need analyzers to properly set up these appliances. They are not as forgiving as the old cast iron blocks.

Remember we all asked for these low mass modulating, condensing appliances for efficient radiant applications. Now we need to learn how to"drive and maintain" them properly.

I feel many failures will be "operator error" caused, not the construction of the appliance. It's always easiest to blame the manufacture

hot rod

Mi39ke_2

Thanks for the input guys...

Water side is not a problem..yet. [g]

I better make sure the Bro' has put his analyzer to work, as we use them on our clients' projects!

The progressive wholesalers are selling the unit with a 3rd party 10-year warranty attached, as news seems to spread fast. My brother bought one from Equigard immediately.

Hope you get your book of water conditioning to the presses soon, Hot Rod...I agree...this water quality business is one of the most pressing issues. I thought you were working on an article or something for one of the trade rags? Hope I didn't miss it.

Best,

Mi39ke

Ted_5

How to ajust a Munchkin burner

I don't think you can put an analyzer on a Munchkin because
it's preset for modulating. If you do you will see very high
Co levels, like 130 to 200ppm is that a little high!!! The Vitodens is only 5 to 10 ppm, maybe thats why the Munchkin
has some fire side problems. Just a thought

Ted

Unknown

I was with

a representative from Duke Energy last night and we talked about European gas versus our gas. The truth is that which comes out of Norway is the cleanest and purest gas in the world. The propane shipped from Norway to the New England area is 90% pure with very low ethane quantities.

A lot of our natural gas that comes from near the well heads is dirty. Guys in some south western areas tell me they get gunk in the gas valves frequently.

Most of the natural gas we get in New England is fairly clean and low on impurities. It has a high methane compund of about 85% to 90%.

The problem in many cases with burner, boiler and furnace corrosion is caused by contaminants in the environment, poor burner adjustment (insufficient air)and high humidity in the combustion zone. Add to that the lack of knowledge on the part of installers concerning combustion, proper system set up and you have problems.

When all things are right the fuel oil, gas, LP, butane etc will burn properly.

Just my opinion.

Unknown

I am told that with Visio 925

you can lock the Munchkin on high fire while setting it up. That way it will not modulate and confuse the set up. I would assume once it is set up on high fire it should be okay at modulating conditions.

ScottMP

Tim ?

Does Norway supply the majority of Europe ?

If so, it would seem, we would start to see some cleaning problems. What did oyur friend say about high sulfer in the gas ? Does southern Europe get its gas some where else ?

So many questions.

Scott

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Unknown

The Northern

gas fields of Europe provide some of the cleanest gas in the world. It is very low in sulphur content. Not a lot of problems with cleaning relative to the quality of gas.

I am not sure if all of Europe gets their gas from that area, I know that some parts of Europe get gas from Russia.

We tend to have a broad mix of different quality of gas here in the US and Canada. As I mentioned some of my contacts in the southwest tell me that there gas in that area tends to be low BTU around 950 BTU's per cubic foot and tends to have a lot of impurities.

We also get LNG in this country from places like Algeria it comes in to Everett, Mass on super tankers. I do not know what its quality is.

My experience over the years has not been related to quality of product but quality of setup and installation. After that the quality of follow up and maintenance. There are too many installers who do not understand combustion and adjustment of burners to obtain maximum efficency and clean operation. I have seen boilers and furnaces set up correctly and maintained properly that have had very minimal residual accumulation of any kind of deposit on or in the combustion chamber.

It would be my feeling that stainless steel or aluminum chambers would bring with them their own inherent problems, time will tell. I think what is more the problem may be the water side and reaction from many variables in temperature and the quality of the water to begin with, acidity etc.

The other problem I see is the condensing mode of many of the new high efficiency units. As the flue gas water vapor is condensed it will leave deposits on the metal surfaces that over a period of time will have an effect. The carbonic acid or close to it which is the product of condensing mode on most systems has to eventually cause some problems. The quality of the metal will determine how long it takes.

We have already begun to see on warm air furnaces the secondary heat exchangers get plugged up with dust and dirt. Service people not realizing that these act just like the condensing coil on an air conditioner do not clean them on annual maintenance. Then all of a sudden we have a not enough heat complaint, cause is a plugged secondary heat exchanger.

I am looking forward to the classes we will be running on High Efficency boilers in May. I want to ask some questions about these very topics.

A lot of what Jim Davis and I and others discussed several months back about this very topic of adjustments and quality of fuel, and the systems that use the fuel.

How about this for the future, we may have to replace boilers and furnaces every ten to fifteen years just like we are now with water heaters.

Ted_5

The quality of metal is key

to the longevity of the boiler. The Vitodens HX is made of
316Ti s steel, that is the highest quality made and has a
wall thickness of 1.5 mm. The HX also has large water passageways[for a low mass boiler]and in piping designs they
watch the gpm's to ensure the right velocity, to prevent
erosion of the HX. On the fire side the condensate and the
flue gases have to go in the same direction, so that the condensate doesn't get evaporated and be come more acidic.
Construction of the HX is another part to look for. The
Vitodens is all fusion welded no mechanical joints, except one for the supply and one for the return. I my opinion, thats why I think the Vitodens is worth every penny!

Ted

Andy Michl_2

Timmie have you considered videos of your training for the people that live out side of your area. I would be very interested. You have a wealth of knowledge to share with all of us.

Roy Collver

Setting up a burner on high fire may give you a great combustion mix on high fire, but no guarantee of how good it will be when modulated down (most of the time). All depends on the quality and precision of the gas valve. There are some pretty skanky ones out there that don't maintain gas/air worth a damn when modulating. Use your analyser to check and if all is well, great. If not, where do you go from there?

Unknown

Most new systems are using

a Honeywell valve made in the Netherlands it is a VK8115 negative pressure valve with very good reaction with modulating systems.

If you follow the set up procedure for the Munchkin and other new modulating systems you should not have a problem. Now all I have to do is figure out all those directions. It takes me a while but once I get it I am locked in.

Unknown

We are working on doing

some videos in the future. Then I can retire and just sell the videos.