What's your commercial experience... (ME)

[Deleted User]

Howdy ya'll,

I'm looking at a very niice veterinarians office where he wnats to incorporate radiant floors intothe project. However, there is a LARGE need for fresh air ventialation and make up air in the general public area of the building.

My thoughts and questions are these,

A.) When you have many air changes per hour in a commercial setting, does radiant floors provide any benefit (the only ones walking around with bare feet are the dogs, and they're not talking...)

B.) Does anyone have experience with air to air heat exchangers under this scenario (odors and pet dander).

Any and all thoughts are accepted.

Thanks!

ME

Tom Meyer

ERV and HRV

We've used these in high air exchange scenarios.

They seem to work on cooking odors, but not sure about the kennel-type odor problems.


Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics Corporation
www.precisionhydronics.com

BillW@honeywell

ER&HRV's

ER & HR ventilators are about 85% efficient. They are a must for any place that requires lots of ventilation. Back in the "old days", animal colonies at research facilities and also most hospitals were 100% outside air, but no more. ER/HR ventilators will dilute & exhaust odors, vapors and gases, but won't have any effect on dander or other particulate, so you'll need either an advanced media filter or electronic air cleaner to deal with that. ER/HR ventilators can either stand alone or be incorporated into ductwork, so you have a choice of how you can install them. If they stand alone, you might want to consider mounting the discharge grilles high on the wall so they won't blow on anyone directly, but since you already have radiant, running a small reheat wouldn't be too much problem. Our ER/HR ventilators supply up to 200 cfm. Go to http://hbctechlit.honeywell.com and type in HR200, and you'll get the tech sheets, which include sizing. Also, be advised that the HR model must not be exposed to freezing temperatures, so attic mounts aren't a possibility. Hope this helped!

Dave Springer

Information from Purina

Copied from: http://www.purina.com/breeders/default.asp?article=72

KENNEL TEMPERATURE

A properly constructed kennel roof with sufficient insulation and ventilation helps control the adverse effects of summer heat and winter cold. Inside temperatures should be maintained in a comfortable range for working personnel. Winter temperatures high enough to keep waterers and water lines from freezing are generally satisfactory for most dogs. Heating pads placed in whelping boxes provide supplemental warmth for puppies. Floor heating, popular in many kennels, utilizes pipes or heat cables embedded in the floors. Floors with this type of heating dry quickly but tend to produce more odors than unheated floors in poorly ventilated buildings. If you decide to use this type of heating, consider installing the heat pipes or cables under half the floor on one side of the pens. This reduces costs and provides a safety feature so that dogs can move to the cooler side if overheating occurs. Gas or electric space heaters suspended from the ceiling have provided low maintenance heating service in many kennels.

Four to six inches of poured insulation or insulation bats are adequate for ceiling insulation. A fan to move air through the attic area will aid in cooling during summer months. Air conditioning is desirable in working rooms. In hot climates and in boarding and veterinary kennels, air conditioning throughout the kennel may be needed.

heatboy

85% efficient?

Bill,

At what incoming air temperature or Delta T does the ERV attain that 85% efficiency rate? There is so much talk about things like that and I am not really sure what it all means. That other ERV with the plastic heat exchanger (what crap!) only gets efficiencies in the low 60s% and that's at 10°F! At 40°F, which is where most of the Winter is, it's not even that good. You might as well just leave a window open. Can you help clear this up for me?

hb

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Tom Anderson

Not sure of the cfm's you need. Probably significant.. with odor control needs, and any codes or engineering good practice... the air flow will add up. Radiant floor *only* will certainly not handle OA loads. Will radiant be a problem for canines and felines? Worth checking on that.

Tempering outside air will be a HUGE piece of the kennel energy pie. Use a good commercial grade unit, something like Z duct Des Champes). Filters on supply air and filters in the exhaust stream will be required...exhaust filter efficiency a function of the particulate size.

For heat recovery only, consider a metal plate type. If you want *energy* recovery, for heating and cooling recovery, consider a descicant wheel type. Think about resulting interior RH if a plate type used.. no latent recovery there. Also, you will need to think about economizer cycle.. when thermal heat recovery is not desired. All this stuff you can usually get as factory installed controls, including defrost. Also factory installed heating coils, even DX, chilled water, etc.

Also, think about installing a fan motor variable speed drive (VSD) for supply and exhaust fans. You can run fans at full load when you really require full air change rates. Perhaps run at 80% speed (or a little less) during unoccupied peroids or certain times during a day. Most systems will hardly notice change down to 80% cfm, and a lower speed will reduce fan energy power by half, or more, as well as increase heat exchanger thermal efficiency. VSD's are really inexpensive these days... a 1 HP will cost you about US $550. or less. I am seeing them installed on heating HW water pumps as low as 1 HP for central variable flow pumping for 40 unit or so apartment complexes.

Hope this helps.....

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Mike Reavis_2

vets

My vets office has a very pooprly maintained standard gas fired roof top unit in a comeercial strip-store. The place smells like a vets office--but not offesively so. Are you also heating a kennel? I am wondering if one of those direct fired heaters could provide some make-up air/ventilation, in addition to the floor heat.

Mike Reavis_2

vets

My vets office has a very pooprly maintained standard gas fired roof top unit in a comeercial strip-store. The place smells like a vets office--but not offesively so. Are you also heating a kennel? I am wondering if one of those direct fired heaters could provide some make-up air/ventilation, in addition to the floor heat.

Bill_14

Vet Clinic Thoughts

Proper air exchange is very important issue in a vet clinic environment. In addition, the overall HVAC design should consider zoning certain areas of the clinic.

Boarding areas for dogs should get 12 air changes per hour and a minimum exhaust fan capacity of 500 CFM and enough fans to provide 50 CFM per dog.

Boarding areas for cats need 8 air changes per hour and a minimum exhaust fan capacity of 200 CFM and enough fans to provide 8 CFM per cat.

Treatment and medical areas need at least 10 air changes per hour, with a minimum exhaust fan capacity of 300 CFM.

Basically, you will need anywhere from 6 to 10 air changes per hour with more in some critical areas in order to keep clean air flowing and the odors to a minimum. Proper air exchange is very important in a vet clinic if a sense of cleanliness is being considered for the clients and staff.

The office and reception area should be a completely separate zone with an outside air source of 25% to 50% mixed with the return air.

A properly designed HVAC sysyem for a vet clinic is similar to the design criteria for a human hospital. There is much to consider.

Bill

Paul Pollets

I use

Lifebreath HRV's coupled with the TFP for particulate removal. They come in various sizes and are well suited for quiet air exchange and dehumidification If A/C is needed, I use variable speed air handlers again, coupled with TFP's for particulate removal. You can also install an HRV to the air handler and TFP for state of the art air quality. Call me Mark, at 206-783-4315, if you need more details. Paul

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