Kitchen radiant retro, on top (hr)

hot_rod

for various on top pre made products. Running the numbers for this install, the carpenter charges $25.00 per hour for 12 hours+ $300.00. Add the plywood 225 square feet, glue and nails. 208 feet of plates, installed by the carpenter, then my hour plus PAP and I'm under a grand for 225 square feet.

I keep plates and tube in stock, and all the rest was of the shelf materials from the lumber yard. For this size job with a two day window, I think this was the best approch. Warmboard, QuikTrac, and Watts 862 were other options presented. I'm not sure I could have bought the other products for that $$ amount, uninstalled to boot.

I have real solid proof on the performance of the Radiant Engineering ThermoFin product. I know they work as presented :) As of yet I haven't tested the other "on top" products for actual performance. But I'm working on it.

hot rod

hot_rod

This 225 sq. ft.

kitchen will get a new cherry floor. The carpenter built the Advantech strips with a recess to accept the U fins. Took him a day and a half to do the strips and install the plates. I installed and tested the Wirsbo MultiCor PAP in about an hour. The PAB is a nice snug fit, (a bit larger OD than regular pex) and maybe the aluminum layer adds to the transfer Bit less expansion issues with PAP also

I like to run one loop under the kitchen sink cabinet when located on an outside wall. I go "Plateless in Springfield" to prevent overheating the cabinets in this area.

hot rod

Al Letellier

kitchen radiant

Looks like a beautiful job! But seems like a lot of work and man hours on the carpentry side. Why this type instead of Quik-Trac? We did a kitchen that size with QT and did the whole job, tie in and all in 6 hours.

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Dan Peel

Playin in the mud

They've got me playing in gyp this week. I'm waiting for you to convice me I need aluminum with our on top dry systems. See you in Sacramento. Dan

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heatboy

Nice, hr!

I have been kicking around the MultiCor with ThermoFin. I believe you have just convinced me to try it on the next on top project. There is nothing on the planet that beats the heat transfer of ThermoFin. Thanks for the picture!

hb

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antman

hr, I know thermofin makes two different types of plates, "c" + "u", what is the diffence if you used the other type and installed the filler boards on top of the aluminum fins? is there better heat transfer when the aluminum is up against the finished floor? On thermofins web site they show it face down with the tubing completely enclosed, and that seems like a pain in the a** to install, now on your install (which looks great as usual) it seems as though that is alot of work to get the fins flush with the fller boards, i'm not sure all carpenters would be willing to go that extra mile.

Thanks for the thoughts, Ant

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hot_rod

personal preference, I suppose

I generally buy U fin as they lend themselves to so many projects. I like them for shower walls also, as it is easiest to nail the plate to the studs and snap the tube in from the front, not rear, in my opinion. Also it makes it hard for the other subs to deny that they knew tubes were installed!

Without a doubt C fins are the way to go, if installing below the subfloor.

It was the carpenters choice to rabbet the edges to allow a flush surface, between the fin and strips. I think the 3/4" T&G hardwood would span this gap without a problem. It was without a doubt the most time consuming, labor intensive part of the job. The lumber yard delivered the strips precut. Most lumber and home centers will do this with their panel saws for free or low cost, as a customer service. Ask them.

To me, it makes sense to have the aluminum as close to the finished flooring as possible. It takes that addition R value, of the strips, out of the transfer equasion. Again, just the way I am used to. Either method will transfer the heat. Some may argue the fins under the strips even out the heat spread better, but with 8 or 9" OC fins, I really don't see a stripping issue.

My goal with the transfer plates is the quickest on/ off, for shoulder season start/ stop, and it allows the lowest possible supply temperatures to keep them wood fibers "stressless"

Thanks for the comments, all

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joel_14

home made

Very nicely done Hot Rod but out here Climate Panel rules. It's just so much faster and easier. No carpenter would do that for you here for that kind of money . Heck I doubt you could find a guy interested for any price. i'd be scared to death. If i've got this 2 day window i want to controll it all. What if the guy didn't show ?? what if he didn't follow your instructions ?? would he redo it for free?? We'd do it ourselves with C.P. and tie into the boiler with a tekmar controll and do it in 1 day thanx and by by, fast ,sweet and neat. I wish we could get people out here to do that kind of thing but it just aint going to happen. I can't even get a guy to fix the trim around my garage doors.

hot_rod

glass is half full or half empty

sounds like you need to move, Joel.

I try to surround myself with subs that DO show up, and CAN follow orders. It takes some searching, but they are findable, I've found:) Yeah, labor rates vary widly from area to area. You Eastern guys are loaded!

I visited some jobsites in the wealthiest area of Connecticut a few years ago. Lettermans neighborhood, I believe. I suspect the "workers" that were hauled in every day from street corners around there, to build those "starter castles and trophy homes" were not "high dollar" employees. However their workmanship was top notch. They really WANTED to work, and it showed!

I have had, and continue to have some real bad experiences with "micro diameter" tube, and high head pumps. No thanks to the panels

Again, just my preference. There are many acceptable ways to warm the floors. As you mentioned it seems to be an area sensitive market force. I realize CP and QuikTrak are big sellers in your area. Good marketing by the manufactures really helps

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Michael_6

Raupanel

If you are truly looking for the easiest install, lowest water temp.,best heat transfer and quickest response time...

hot_rod

Looks interesting

send me a piece! Does the hardwood nail into the aluminum channel if a end joint ends up on the panel?

hot rod

Michael_6

raupanel

there is plenty of nailing surface, but the answer is yes nails,screws whatever will penetrate the aluminum very easily

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Strange

Essentially perfect, COMPLETELY INTIMATE contact with the final radiating surface and BACK INSULATION will be CRITICAL for efficient operation!!!

This may prove difficult to achieve as the back side is in the form of a heat sink for electronics and will prove GREAT at radiating and convecting the "wrong" way!

Michael_6

sheer brilliance

Swampy, Perfectly written! I am in awe of your ability to just take a quick look at something and to use your words "prove" how it will function.

Imagine the engineers at Rehau had to physically test perfomance in labs and on actual job sites, then actually run computer analysis to test the optimum thickness of aluminum panels to deliver heat transfer rather than be heat sinks.

But, worse poor smucks like me had to actually purchase panels run water through it, see how rapidly they heat up at low water temps and how much less heat is transfered down to the subfloor. We then had to go ahead and install them throughout 6 complete homes multiple additions and a few baths, only to find out our heating curves (in one of the coldest winters we've had in a long time) were actually a lot lower than our other systems.

SO, after having to go through all of that here is what we have found: operating water temperatures to be lower, much quicker response time, much lower temperatures under the subfloor, more accurate room temps and lot less over shoot on rooms with solar gain than our poured projects.

Although, I am extremely jealous of your abilities I except the fact that simpletons like myself will just have to trudge through life doing things the difficult way, all we can do is work with what we are given.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Ceilings!!!

Ever use it on the ceiling? Looks like that would be a wonderful application. Install 8" center perpendicular to joists/rafters with nice 2" nailers in between for the rockers. I'd neatly insulate then install a radiant barrier, finally the plates.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

"run computer analysis to test the optimum thickness of aluminum panels to deliver heat transfer rather than be heat sinks"

Then I presume the conducting surface is thicker than the structural support.