I'm a little Munchkin, short & stout.....

[Deleted User]

The factory.

You can speak with the president of the company (Dave Davis) or his chief engineer (Brian French). Tell them I said for you to call them for the straight and skinny. They may line you up with one of their underlings, but rest assured, they're straight shooters.

HTP 1-800-323-9651

Let us know what you think.

ME

hot_rod

Mr. Cast Iron takes a holiday!

No more can Mr. Luttrell claim my blood runs on cast iron only(G).

The customer dictated this was to be a Munchkin (who says they don't read & keep up on new things!). Who am I to argue?

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Jackchips

Very

Nice.

Unknown

Very nice work

Either thats a humongous boiler , or that was a short space to work in . With a name like Munchkin , I'm guessing the latter . What did you guys work on creepers for this job ? And is that a reinforced cement pad under the boiler , over the blocks ? Excellent job Dave .

kevin

very slick...

what control is that next to the argo relay?kpc

hot_rod

very nice

work, Dave. What brand indirect is that? Long and lean!

hot rod

J.C.A.

OUCH !!!!

Nice job Dave . My back hurts just LOOKING at the space though . So....How are your knees this morning ? Chris

ScottMP

Sweet work

So tells us, oh cast iron one, have you seen the future of hydronics and is it good ?

Who's the installer Dave ? He do'es very "true" work, nice use of 45"s.

I also want to know who's indirect ? We have used Buderus and I know Viessmann makes one horizontal.

Text book work David, this is what its supposed to look like.


Scott

Hey Chris, just think how bad it hurt with a wetbase oil fired ... Ouch. You've put in Munchkin, Dave's guy probable put this in alone.

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heatboy

Beautiful, PAH!

For a guy who lived through the GlowCore debacle, I admire the fact that you jumped back into the small boiler stuff. I just love the words "plumb and level"! This is a perfect example of the phrase! Great job, Dave.

hb

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J.C.A.

Scott....

Think Dodge would go for something like that ? It's about the same size as the allotted space, but a much nicer (and easier on the knees) floor.

Outstanding work !

Floyd

I can't believe....

the light bulb is still there... how many times did you have to replsce that!!!!

Beautiful work!!!! Give that installer a bonus for a job WELL done!!!!

Floyd

Alan(OnVacationInOregon)Forbes

Tough Crawl

Nice job, Dr. Y. Tough to tell if it's radiant, BB or radiators.

The last Munckin seminar I want to (Vision intro.), they told us not to pump away; to put the pump on the return. I think it's even in the instructions. I believe the limit string likes it better.

All the best,

Alan

[Deleted User]

Pumping away...

I think Mr Forbes is correct. There is a low pressure switch in the block, that could cause intermittent outages if it is allowed to see a low pressure condition such as could be seen under this scenario.

Pumping away from the PONPC is still required. Pumping towards the boiler is OK. The only problem with all of this is that is violates the basic principles of air removal (highest temps, lowest pressure), but I have done it this way and it works fine. It takes a little longer for the air to come out, but it eventually will.

Nice job Dave, did you have to hire a midget, er I mean vertically challenged fitter to do this job??

ME

steve_6

nice looking job!!

I would have turned those blocks around so you couldn't see those red numbers. Any hack can make a job look bad,but only a pro with pride can make it look good!!!!!

pj m

primary/secondary?

Dave, nice looking install, was wondering about the need/expense for the primary/secondary piping. This boiler will take the low water return temps, yes?

pj

Jamie_6

Will u ever

stop raising the bar for all of us to try to get over?

Mark Hunt

P/S on Munchkins

The P/S piping is not there to protect the boiler from low return water temps, it is there to provide proper flow rate through the boiler.

Nice looking install PAH! Must have had some munchkins working in such a short area!!

Mark H

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pj m

primary/secondary?

Mark, this boiler requires a high flow rate? I thought it had a modulating gas valve, adjusting the firing rate based on supply and return temps.

pj

Mark Hunt

yup!


The newer control will start off in low fire and then ramp up accordingly. This would take care of any short cycling. If the boiler we see here has an original control board in it, then either P/S piping is needed or a buffer tank. Just trying to remove btu's.

With the new "Vision" control the world is at your finger tips. I am so excited about this product!!!

Mark H

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Glenn Harrison

I've got a question

I saw the Pinnacle (Munchkin twin) at ASHRAE, and they were telling me the HX holds about two quarts of water. If this is the case, and the HX is flow critical, what protects the HX in the event that the pump fails or something stops the flow while the boiler is fired?

Thanks.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Tech

Althoff Industries Inc. Mechanical and Electrical Services

Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industries website

Steamhead

Another Beautiful Job, Dave

and knowing you, it works as well as it looks!

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[Deleted User]

I've got an answer...

The heat exchanger has a series of sensors on it including supply, return, flue gas temp and pressure. The reaction time of the boiler is amazingly quick. I too wanted to know what the reaction time was if fired with no pump, so I did. The boiler rattled for a second and shut down. They appear to have it covered pretty well IMHO.

ME

Glenn Harrison

Thanks M.E.

That's pretty amazing reaction time, but I would think neccesary to prevent cooking that small HX.

Now why can't the copper tube boiler manufacturers come up with some kind of protection like that?

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Tech

Althoff Industries Inc. Mechanical and Electrical Services

Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industries website

pj m

munchkin flow rate

Mark H and ME thanks for the info, how do you figure the proper flow thru these boilers if they modulate their firing rate? I understood that the firing rate was as low as 25% of its total input. Suggestions for circulator sizing? Other flow sensitive boilers had a "rule of thumb" of 1 gpm/ 10,000 BTU's, but this was at a steady firing rate. Thanks in advance. pj

paul lessard_3

here yugo ...

Hope this helps nm

pj m

same old boat?

ME, so what is the advantage of this low mass boiler in this application? Not going to get the combustion efficiency when running water temps needed for baseboard (not sure this question was answered)or the indirect. Still going to have issues with short cycling unless you buffer, p/s won't do the job, the primary loop is much too small. Not busting anybodys chops, but I'm bidding a job this week with 5 of these hummers specified, waaaay out in the boonies, just trying to gather as much info as possible before I start tossing Benji's out the window. Gotta go,it's 10below and the phone is ringing. pj

hot_rod

Jeepers creepers

Creepers it was. The access is a good 30 feet away with one 2" cast iron drain line to hurtle along the way. Entrance way to the crawl is through the soon to be expanded kitchen floor - 2' x 2'.

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hot_rod

once bitten

twice shy. I'm putting my toes in the water.

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hot_rod

velly interestink

Haven't seen so much as a burp with the 011 and short primary loop.

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hot_rod

thanks

excellent observation. They'll either be turned or else painted.

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[Deleted User]

Different boat...

Your old boat motor had two speeds, 10,000 RPM's and ZERO rpms. This boat has the ability to vary its RPMS from 0 to 10,000 RPM's in 1,000 RPM increments (similar). Yes, its highest efficiency is going to be when it is running at a lower temperature (below 135 deg F). but even when it is running at a temp above 135, it is still VERY efficient. This goes back to the arguments about overall net thermal efficiency versus combustion/AFUE efficiency, and I really don't want to muck up Daves thread with that here, but trust me when I tell you that its not the same old boat you're used to rowing.

Short cycling is still a potential problem depending on the system configuration, however, the potential is substantially reduced when you institute the new Vision One control program. You must be factory trained in order to use this function, and for anyone who is seriously considering this boiler, er natural gas thermal converter (calling it a boiler is unfair) as their sole, or top line of heat source, it is a MUST.

I've seen the Viessmann, and I've installed numerous Munchkins, and my preference is to lean towards the Munchkin for the majority of the jobs, and use the Viesmann on the top budgetless jobs. I have zero experience with the technical folks at the big V, but I know the folks at HTP personally and know that they will listen to the needs of the contractor and develop the product around their needs. They have a whole bunch of things up thier sleeves at HTP that when released will blow the competition away. If I tell you any more, I'll have to kill you...
(JUST KIDDING:-))

I think you're going to enjoy your first Munchkin experience. Just make sure you take the time to read ALL of the installation instructions before you install it. It's not your typical boiler.

Take lots of pictures and show us your stuff when your through, and quit polluting (Benji's out the window) will ya??

Here's my favorite variable speed boat...

ME

hot_rod

installation crew

outdid themselves(G). I cut them loose on this one & gave them the leeway to take their time. They used to be sheetmetal ductwork only & they're well on the way to being converted to Wet Heads. I'm darn proud of their skills and artistic flair.

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steve gates

I know there's

some diff's but. I've seen more than one Heatmaker burn up when a safety didn't work?

hot_rod

loops

What you're seeing includes the future radiant floor. Aside from the indirect, which will give return water temps riding the edge of condensing, the other zones will be fully condensing due to the Munch varying its input to match loading. They'll only be out of that mode on the coldest days of the year.

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hot_rod

it's

a Crown Mega-Store. A vertical tank wouldn't fit!

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[Deleted User]

Redudency...

is there. I think there's a couple of manual reset highlimit in the safety string. The nice thing is, when a safety pops out, the controller tells you which one popped out to keep you from hunting it down. A VERY intelligent control in my estimation.

ME

heatboy

OK, I'm in!

Where do I get knowed up on the Munchkin and Vision thing? Who do I contact at the factory? Hep me, ME!

hb

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pj m

loops

Dave, thanks for clarifying the heat distribution piping.
Have had good luck with the vertical model of that tank.Convince me of the short cycling issue. Will you have some zones that won't be able to absorb the btu's of even the minumum firing rate of this (ok, heat generation unit)? What about when the indirect is about to be satisfied? Seems like many of our low mass installations of days gone by , even 45k and 50k units had issues with these scenarios. ME, some of these inquiries are directed more towards you, but I got carried away and did not want to start over. Thanks in advance for any help. pj p.s. ME, now if we had an adjustable multi-speed circulator (like that motor you got on that boat of yours), we would really be in tall cotton. Oh wait, I saw some of those at ISH Frankfurt in '99, guess Grundfos decided they could'nt sell them here, oh well. pj

Colin

Dave's Training Picture

Excelent work. I downloaded the picture to show to my crew. There truly are fine craftsmen still out there.
Thanks
Colin