Water quality issue question.

Glenn Harrison

Before I ask this question I want to qualify it with the fact that I am asking this for one of my bosses. The issue at hand I have not actually scene personally.

We have two customers in the same subdivision that are having a problem with a bluish green slime building up on the humidifiers. This slime is completly plugging up the pads causing them to need replacement three times this winter. It is also plugging up the stainers, orifaces, and solenoid valves. The humids are all connected to hot water. One house has an indirect stainless steel water tank and the other a 75 gallon rheem which has had the anode rod removed. There are no other water problems in the houses. Both houses are suposedly supplied with Lake Michigan water, although since these houses are 30+ miles inland I am assuming there is some city well water mixed in to keep the wells active. The water has been tested, and apparently the only thing that is high is the phosphate levels. We have taken several samples of the water and are going to send it to different labs for analyisis, as the current water treatment company doesn't no what to do about the phospate, or where it is coming from.

Any one with any experience with something like this feel free to chime in. We are open to any suggestions.

Thanks in advance.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Tech

Althoff Industries Inc. Mechanical and Electrical Services

Crystal Lake, Illinois

<a href="http://www.althoffind.com" target="_blank">Althoff Industries website</a>

David Efflandt

alge?

Phosphates are added to the water to coat the old lead pipes in Chicago, and is also commonly used to keep iron from accumulating in pipes. Lake water is oxygen rich, which the suburbs suddenly noticed in the form of rusty water when switching from wells to lake.

We thought the phosphates might create a problem for strainers on our control valves used in municipal water systems, but the white coating is thin and soft, so it has not been an issue at all.

I don't know if it is normal to use hot water for a humidifier, but warm water and phosphates sound like a good breeding ground for blue-green alge.

Frank_17

algae

I think David has nailed it . a little algae will go a long ways. I'd clorox the huids and plenums, & swith to cold water.
Can't help but thinking of a story I heard years ago about the origin of Leageonaire's disease.

Tony Conner

It's Not...

...algae. Algae needs sunlight to grow. You can have dead algae getting pulled out of things like cooling towers or ponds, and THAT can show up in strainers, etc. It could be some sort of bacterial growth, though.

Glenn Harrison

Hello, David

Glad to hear from you again. I think you just told me what I needed to know. Where did you get the info about the phosphate being added? I've never heard of this.

This would also explain why my Lake County Lake Michigan water doesn't have this problem, the North Shore water district must not add the phosphate.

It is normal to hook up a humidifier to hot water to get more capacity out of it. Supposedly hot water evaporates more easily than cold, but it sounds like the consiquences are not worth the benifits. The thing that stinks is one of these two customers has a humidity problem to the point that they have two large humidifiers on each hydro-air unit (6) and it is still dry in the house, so going to cold water will probably make this worse.

By the way, who do you work for that makes water control valves, if you don't mind me asking.

And if you were wondering, this problem is in a new subdivision in Oak Brook Terrace.

Thanks for the info.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Tech

Althoff Industries Inc. Mechanical and Electrical Services

Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industries website

Glenn Harrison

Thanks, Tony.

Another good point.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Tech

Althoff Industries Inc. Mechanical and Electrical Services

Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industries website

Glenn Harrison

Thanks, Frank.

That's a powerfull comparison you made there.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Tech

Althoff Industries Inc. Mechanical and Electrical Services

Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industries website

David Efflandt

I work for Cla-Val Co. Our automatic control valves up to 24" control reservoir and elevated tank levels, pressures, surges, flow, etc. for water and aviation fuel (O'Hare & military). They are diaphragm actuated using line pressure to operate.

Chicago has been adding phosphates for years to minimize the leaching of lead from the old piping. We work with consulting engineers who do work for the Chicago water department and may have heard about it from there.

The north shore may not do that, but they do have to flush the rust out of their mains more often than when they were on well water.

My humidity hasn't fallen much under 25% all winter and my humidifier consists of a few house plants and a small pan of water on the radiator. My air vents breath might breath some humitity, but they close up when the steam hits them.

David Efflandt

I work for Cla-Val Co. Our automatic control valves up to 24" control reservoir and elevated tank levels, pressures, surges, flow, etc. for water and aviation fuel (O'Hare & military). They are diaphragm actuated using line pressure to operate.

Chicago has been adding phosphates for years to minimize the leaching of lead from the old piping. We work with consulting engineers who do work for the Chicago water department and may have heard about it from there.

The north shore may not do that, but they do have to flush the rust out of their mains more often than when they were on well water.

My humidity hasn't fallen much under 25% all winter and my humidifier consists of a few house plants and a small pan of water on the radiator. My air vents breath might breath some humid air, but they close up when the steam hits them.

David Efflandt

I work for Cla-Val Co. Our automatic control valves up to 24" control reservoir and elevated tank levels, pressures, surges, flow, etc. for water and aviation fuel (O'Hare & military). They are diaphragm actuated using line pressure to operate.

Chicago has been adding phosphates for years to minimize the leaching of lead from the old piping. We work with consulting engineers who do work for the Chicago water department and may have heard about it from there.

The north shore may not do that, but they do have to flush the rust out of their mains more often than when they were on well water.

My humidity hasn't fallen much under 25% all winter and my humidifier consists of a few house plants and a small pan of water on the radiator. My air vents might breath some humid air, but they close up when the steam hits them.

David Efflandt

I work for Cla-Val Co. Our automatic control valves up to 24" control reservoir and elevated tank levels, pressures, surges, flow, etc. for water and aviation fuel (O'Hare & military). They are diaphragm actuated using line pressure to operate.

Chicago has been adding phosphates for years to minimize the leaching of lead from the old piping. We work with consulting engineers who do work for the Chicago water department and may have heard about it from there.

The north shore may not do that, but they do have to flush the rust out of their mains more often than when they were on well water (due to more air in lake water).

My humidity hasn't fallen much under 25% all winter and my humidifier consists of a few house plants and a small pan of water on the radiator. My air vents might breath some humid air, but they close up when the steam hits them.

Mark A. Custis

Glen & Tony

We get red gunk out of lake erie. Check it out, there are things that do grow without sunlight or in what we would consider very hot water. Nature does not like a vacume.

I might consider a stand alone mini water purification system in the home if the water supplier washes his or her hands of the issue.

A quick fix on well systems in our area was to dump a bottle of clorine bleach into the well or cistern and draw water to the farthest spigot and then the rest, till you smelled the bleach. Go away for the weekend and then flush.

Please read the direcctions as results may vary

Mark

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[Deleted User]

from a swimming pool background

We are also in the swimming pool and hot tub business. Phosphates are a real no no, they encourage algae growth. Sounds like algae to me. You can treat with bleach, a.k.a. as chlorine. We had a humidifier when we lived in Alaska, and we found that we liked concentrated Lysol better than bleach. It is sold in a brown plastic bottle, usually find it at your local pharmacy. It smells better than bleach. The other thing we did, was dump the water at least once a week, helps with the build up and carry over. Always better to start out fresh. My wife would also throw the filter pad in the washer with a little bleach about once a month. (we heated and humidified year round). I have also found that a house that just won't hold humidity, probably has some major air leaks. They will cause many air changes in a house, thus lots of water needs to be added to the cold dry air being drawn into the house.

ScottMP

How about

Cleaning these two and switching them to cold water with a flter ? Won't that take of the problem ?

Scott

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[Deleted User]

More on phosphates

I did a google search on "langlier index phosphates" and came up with this. When this gentleman ClaVal first said water companies were pumping phosphates into the system, my first initial reaction was "No way!!". Now it's "Way!!" Glad I didn't let my mouth overrun my brain.

Google, what a search engine. Here's what I found from a web site at http://www.aquasmartinc.com/newsletters/oct-01/page6.html

Enjoy! ME

BEGIN PASTED TEXT

Over the past decade, federal regulations on drinking water quality have been promulgated at a pace that is outstripping the ability of water systems to deal with both efficiently and economically. Many water managers have become frustrated at laws which, for all their good intentions to improve water quality, seem to be contradictory in their recommended solutions using best available treatment technologies.

One good example of this paradox is the lead and copper rule versus the new mcls for THMs (trihalomethanes). The lead and copper rule states that the mcl for lead is now 0.015 ppm and for copper is now 1.3 ppm. When exceeding these levels, the industry recommended answer was to raise pH treatment alone or in combination with a variety of other treatments. Now comes the new mcls for THM levels to 80 ppb down from 100 ppb (and eventually will go down to 40 ppb). The industry recommended answer to bring THMs down is to lower pH (so chlorine becomes more stable and less is required resulting in lower THM formation). Both solutions are diametrically opposed to one another, one solution saying raise pH and the other saying lower pH. Alternatively, other solutions such as ozone and chloramine treatment have been implemented, but can be expensive, difficult to control, and cause taste problems for some systems.

A second good example is regulations governing general corrosion control (red water, tuberculation build up, etc.) versus new regulations being promulgated for turbidity. The industry recommended answer to optimize general corrosion control is to add lime (calcium hydroxide) to raise alkalinity and pH to affect a Langlier index as close to zero as possible. The industry recommended standard for lowering turbidity is to stop liming and alternatively use sodium carbonate, sodium silicate, or very corrosive and expensive sodium hydroxide all of which have proven to have numerous expensive problems associated with successful application. Both solutions are diametrically opposed to one another, one solution saying add lime and the other saying stop liming.

One recommended approach has been to use orthophosphate technology either with metals (zinc) or without metals. This approach has been found to require use of very high (expensive) treatments rates up to 4 ppm along with even higher pH levels up to 9+ in order to treat lead/copper and corrosion control, but still negatively effecting mcls for THMs and DBP regulations...while doing nothing for turbidity. Too, the zinc alternative is usually counterproductive to waste water requirements and regulations by raising zinc levels in wastewater sludge. The end result is spending a lot of money with more problems to solve.


Another approach recommended is to use polyphosphate technology either with metals (zinc) or without metals. Although this approach has been found to require more economically manageable treatment rates, it still does not deal with THM and DBP regulations as well as the problem of zinc in wastewater sludge. Also, the stability of these compounds to temperature, time, and pH is extremely limited resulting in reversion within the distribution system causing additional deposit problems as well as increased lead/copper levels as suggested by published AWWA studies.

This has lead to the advent of blended phosphates (combinations of ortho and polyphosphates) in order to provide the best benefits of all types of phosphates without the negative aspects of any particular phosphate component. However, this technology has been very elusive in that it requires a total understanding of phosphate chemistry, water chemistry, interfacial surface chemistry, and biological chemistry. Many products making many beneficial claims have turned out to be nothing more than a simple blend of one or two orthophosphates and a polyphosphate (i.e. phosphoric acid and sodium hexametaphosphate). None of these products have been found to adequately control lead/copper or corrosion. Also, they all still require pH control, the presence of calcium (or magnesium) in the water, and do not deal with THM or DBP regulations.

SeaQuest

One blended phosphate, SeaQuest, which does incorporate all the above technologies overcomes reversion problems, deals with lead/copper problems all the way to the tap, is independent of calcium water levels, and provides optimum corrosion control without the need for additional pH control. At the same time, SeaQuest slowly removes existing corrosion/scale deposits, sequesters iron/manganese (minimizing red/black water complaints), and eliminates the negative effects of hardness. Because SeaQuest does not require pH control (either as lime, sodium carbonate, sodium silicate, or sodium hydroxide), a water system using SeaQuest can be operated at lower pH levels. This is known to result in more stable chlorine residuals out in distribution, which in turn requires less chlorine to be added. Because of this, the potential formation of THMs and DBPs are reduced considerably.

Mark A. Custis

I told you guys not to drink this stuff

Thanks Mark!

Mark

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Glenn Harrison

Mike,

I aggree with the air infiltraion causing low humidity. The one customer has a brand new house, with two humids per air handler also has 6 HRV's. Looking at the info for HRV's, we concluded that all the dry fresh air from outside is drying out the house faster than the hunids can replenish it. We have turned off two of the HRV's and set the others to the lowest fan speed to see what happens.

Thanks for the second heads up on phospates. We can switch over the humids to cold water and clean them up, but I am wondering if there is someway to remove the phosphates to prevent other problems down the road.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Tech

Althoff Industries Inc. Mechanical and Electrical Services

Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industries website