Any questions about W-M Ultra boiler?

BobbyG

Does anyone have any issues or questions about the Ultra boiler. I will be talking to the W-M people tomorrow and would like to have some good questions. I will post responses from W-M after the meeting. I know the Ultra is a new boiler and there probably aren't many installed yet, but surely with all of the great minds here on the Wall (seriously) you can come up with some good questions. Let me know what you would like to find out about. Thanks!

[Deleted User]

Yeah, sure...

ask them what the pH of the condensate is and if they recommend may kind of pretreatment before disposing of it.

Ask them if they've ever done any kind of true thermal performance testing, like running straight cold water through it and using the degree F raised water BTUH output divided by the BTUH clocked input to see what its' "true thermal performance" is.

Ask them how it performs when it has an outdoor reset controller applied to it. Does it modulate? Does it short cycle? If it moduilates, what's the lowest BTU input acheievable?

Who makes it for them?

How long has this technology been in use?

What happens when you run 50% glycol through it?

What happens if the glycol gets acidic and it has copper connected to it?

What kind of warranty comes on the heat exchanger?

How many units do they actually have out and operating?

Thanks for asking! We look forward to your answers.

ME

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Dirt

How does it deal with the "gunk" inherent in old (say 80+ years) black iron systems with iron radiation? Any testing with such?

Are there any special cleaning requirements to be followed lest the warranty be void?

Since lots of systems of this type currently use simple W-M cast iron and are known for long, trouble-free service I think they should be actively pursuing this market. With the potential of this type of boiler to be exceptionally efficient (and hopefully long-lived as well) on this type of system and ever-rising natural gas rates it seems to me to be a ripe market.

Michele

Does W-M stand for Weil-McLain? I will be replacing my 82 year old steam boiler and would like to put in the most up to date in terms of efficiency and flexibility. Would appreciate any info, though I am not nearly as technically astute as the rest of you on the Wall (I am just a homeowner trying to heat my big old house). Thanks,
Michele

[Deleted User]

yes w-m

stands for weil-mclain. they are refering to the new water boiler tho. tho there are plenty of people here to help you out suggesting a steam boiler. probably best to post your questions as an independant thread tho..

BobbyG

answer to ME's questions

ask them what the pH of the condensate is and if they recommend may kind of pretreatment before disposing of it.

Answer---7.0-7.5 ph level and no it doesn't have to be pretreated before disposing.

Ask them if they've ever done any kind of true thermal performance testing, like running straight cold water through it and using the degree F raised water BTUH output divided by the BTUH clocked input to see what its' "true thermal performance" is.

Answer--(as he was storming out of the room, I strained to hear him muttering,"that Eatherton, something should be done about him"----just kidding, I had to put that in there after reading the other post concening the "boiler" mafia. Yes, he was sure there had been, but didn't have any data with him.

Ask them how it performs when it has an outdoor reset controller applied to it. Does it modulate? Does it short cycle? If it modulates, what's the lowest BTU input acheievable?

Answer--Outdoor reset is standard, Modulation is 20%-100% on current models.(starts at 50% fire for 10 seconds, then goes to 20% fire for 2-minutes, then adjusts flame according to all sensors-[water temps, outdoor, flue temp])

Who makes it for them?
Answer--The ignition control module is made by Honeywell-Europe. Lots of neat functions. (I think) The cast aluminum heat exchange is made by Remaha (Amsterdam)

How long has this technology been in use? 15 years, but actual installations in Europe I think 5-years (may be more-it is hard for me to remember all the details)

What happens when you run 50% glycol through it?
Answer--They offer antifreeze with inhibitor (Alumiblock friendly)--W-M also gives you the number and address to the company that makes the antifreeze explaining they are in the business to sell boilers, not antifreeze.

What happens if the glycol gets acidic and it has copper connected to it?
Answer--Weren't quite sure how to answer, referred back to using Alumiblock friendly antifreeze.

What kind of warranty comes on the heat exchanger?
Answer--5-year parts & labor, 10-year exchanger (residential only)

How many units do they actually have out and operating?
Answer--over 100,000 in Europe (not Weil-McLain, but the same type)W-M has only been selling them since December.

Additional Thoughts—PVC venting right now is through the plate with 2-openings(combustion & intake)—will have more options like the concentric soon—approval testing being done.

High head loss through heat exchanger (Ultra 155-9gpm-32 deg rise-5.8’ Head), primary secondary a must.

Control Module with Indirect wtr htr priority will shut down boiler pump and run only indirect pump. The gentlemen wasn’t sure of timer in case of indirect failure (would it stay on indirect). ( no safety in case of indirect failure?)

Overall-I liked it and think I will try them.

Check it out yourself!
http://www.weil-mclain.com/ultra/modelultra.htm

To Mark Eatherton-- anything I can do for you. I have learned a lot from your articles in Contractor and miss your pictures of all the great stuff in photopoint. You are awesome!!!!Thank You!

BobbyG

Yes, as mentioned before High head loss in boiler must be primary secondary. usual precautions, good cleaning (maybe even trisodium phosphate), then wye strainer with valves to actually cleanout.

James_2

New Ultra boiler

Has anyone read the Ultra installation instructions? The first copy I read outlined pressure testing the heat exchanger before putting a unit into service. Seems the proceedure adds lot of labor to the installation.

I am not sold on aluminum heat exchangers. The manufactures seem to side step the issue and put the monkey on the glycol suppliers. Glycol requires regular maintenace and service. I think there are going to be a lot of premature failures in glycol filled systems and the manufacturers will point the finger at the contractor and the homeowners will be paying the bill. Time will tell...

Henry_4

7.0 pH condensate

Ok, I only studied two years of Chemistry at Olivet Nazarene University, combustion was first year, how does one achieve perfectly neutral condesate on a combustion cycle?


CH3 + O2 --- Heat + CO2 + H20 (perfect equation)
however, in "air" other things are present: nitrogen (produces HNO3 nitric acid), carbon goes into solution (HCO3 carbonic acid) even some sulfur (small) in the gas (H2SO4 sulfuric acid) just to name a few. perfectly neutral water has nothing in it but water (7.0), slightly basic water (7.5) needs an -OH (alkyl), where did that come from? Unless they have hooked up a well supply to the combustion side of the boiler, that is not happening.



Please understand, this is the curious science side of my brain asking. If condensate pH is 7+, someone needs to call God so that He can re-do some of His basic earth science. Oh yeah, have Him call me after he gets done, I have some questions about cold fusion, perpetual motion and making Raquel Welch 25 and my neighbor.

Thanks, Henry

Don_11

Ultra Training

Blackman Plumbing Supply will be conducting training on the Ultra boiler on Long Island on March 18 and 19. The 18th will be in Riverhead and the 19th will be in Farmingdale. Space is limited, but this training is no charge. You can e-mail me if you are interested.

[Deleted User]

Thanks!!

For the information and the kudos. I'm glad you're getting some use out of the articles. If it weren't for Dan Holohan, I wouldn't be writing for them, so thanks to Dan too.

I'd recommend they check their pH meters. I've been testing the pH on the condensate on the condensing appliances we have running, and the highest I've found so far is 4.9, with the typical range in the 4.5 area. I hate to say it, but I think he's pulling your chain. If the acidic condensate is dumped into a cast iron drain pipe, it WILL dissolve the bottom of the pipe and the floor drains P trap. Seen it too many times.

As for glycol and aluminum blocks, it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. How many people do you know who check their glycol on an annual basis? Heck, for that matter, how many homeowners check the oil level on their vehicle every time they gas it up? It says they're supposed to in the owners manual...

Well, time to go the the chiropractors to get my neck fixed from continually looking over my shoulder...waiting for the big truck full of boilers to come up from behind and make me disappear...:-)

Let me ruminate on the rest of his responses.

Thanks again!!

ME