Best way to heat new cape???

danwink

Hello everyone. I live in Maine and am building a cape this summer. I have been looking for information regarding alternatives to oil heat but have not found a lot of information. I have looked at wood pellet stoves and monitor heaters, however I would like to find a central furnace system that runs on an alternative fuel. Can anyone point me in the right direction? It seems that trying to heat a 2500 sq foot cape with a wood pellet stove in one room would not work all that well heating the upstairs, that is why I am looking for more of a furnace system. I guess another alternative is to install a hot water boiler system for a back-up system and a wood stove or pellet stove as a supplimental heat system.

Mark A. Custis

I would consider

radiant floors, either zoned or a single system. Can you get propane in Maine? You could set the system up to start heating when you call it from your cell phone. I guess heating with both hot air and a wood fired boiler in my youth has soured me for finding, chopping, moving and burning wood. It could just be old age and arthritis.

Do you need cooling?

Mark

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Steve Ebels

If you want to use alternative fuels

You set up a hot water system using panel radiators throughout the home. This would give you individual room control of your temps. (Think 78* bathroom, 60* bedroom, 72* living room etc.) Run this off a gas or oil fired boiler. In your return line to the boiler install a heat exchanger of sufficient size to transfer the btu's from an outdoor wood/coal/junk/debris fired "boiler" into the water stream. This works exceedingly well and is fairly simple to do. I have not covered a LOT of details in this brief description but it will give you an idea of what you can do with hydronic heat. When you leave for the weekend or what ever the gas/oil fired unit will seamlessly pick up the load as the wood boiler dies out. It will also keep your outdoor unit from freezing up. Boiler sizing and control strategy is critical for this setup.

Mark Hunt

I'm with Steve !



Panel radiators with thermostatic radiator valves, constant circulation, by-pass, and outdoor rest!!

And if you want to throw a few floor warming zones in you'll never want to leave the place!!

Man, aren't you gonna' be comfy!!

Good luck!

Mark H


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danwink

Cool idea. Would this be more efficient than the BAXI/HS Multifuel Wood Gasification/Oil/Gas/Boiler? I do have access to natural gas and do not need cooling.

The Tarm setup above seemed similar in concept to what you are suggesting.

hot_rod

Depending on budget

you could get a wood fired boiler and have a back up boiler of LP, oil, or electric.

I burn two wood boilers, but around this time of year I get a bit weary of the ritual. I have a MZ back up in the shop/office and a Weil GV in my home. Both LP fired.

I like the idea of a pellet fired boiler. Much less mess, easier to control the output, and it uses by-products that are often bound for land fills.

A small LP boiler for emergency condition. Or extended vacations during cold weather

With a boiler as your "engine" you could mix panel radiators, radiant, baseboard, and even air handlers with HW coils.

Think of a boiler like an engine in a truck. It can drive many different heat emitters.

hot rod

danwink

I can get LP tanks here, however I live on a Natural Gas right of way and have access to it without dealing with tanks.

I don't know what panel radiators are, but I have seen them mentioned several times here. Care to enlighten me?

Thanks again for all of the help.

kevin

try buderus.net...

look at their boilers , panel rads and other stuff...kpc ps... where in Maine? I'm in NH and doing them in my place.

danwink

I am in Belfast, ME

The house I am building will be in the Portland area (Gray)

Mike Kraft

Panel Rad

Here is a pic of a room we installed last year.The control scenerio is exactly how SE described.I might add its wonderful:)

cheese

Steve Ebels

Dan

Check out www.hydronicalternatives.com and look at radson radiators. There are literally hundreds of manufacturers of these. Set up like Mark Hunt said, (constant circulation, outdoor reset and TRV's on the rads) you have to search far and wide to find a system that delivers better comfort.

danwink

How does the price compare to HW baseboard after installation?

Mark A. Custis

I'd still do radiant floors, but check out

runtalnorthamerica.com. Pricey. I always end up over improving where ever I live, they are going to have to bury me out of this project. Go with gas as a back up. Thought you where in Oil Only Land. I found a guy to build a real masonry fireplace for looks, as we could not handle any additional BTUs in the house

Sounds like fun

Mark.

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danwink

I am fortunate to own land that borders the right of way (pipeline) for natural gas to canada. Their policy is to allow any landowners that border the pipeline access to natural gas if desired. Otherwise I am in oil land...

You would recommend natural gas as a good alternative?

kevin

it will...

be higher, no doubt.It all comes down to what your priorities are on what is important to you. After a old fashioned winter like this and the price of energy going up all the time I think it makes tremendous sence to spend the money now instead of later as your fuel bills rise. Yes you could spen money on really nice trim or flooring but you can easily change/upgrade later...its much more difficult to do that with your heating system.
Baseboard is OK you could still get a degree of satisfaction if you got a good quality boiler(gas or oil) and use a contolling srtategy that will boost performance.
I did my student teacing at GNG jr high in 1988.(Teaching didn't work out as a carreer) Do they have Natural gas up there? It musst be close to the turnpike... kpc

danwink

Wow, small world. I graduated from GNG in 1990. I am actually on the east side of Gray, near Cumberland/Freeport and my land borders the Natural Gas pipeline that runs to Canada. They allow landowners that border the pipeline to access the gas, good deal. Otherwise it would not be an option for us.

I really don't know much about all of this (although I am learning fast), what do you think about a BAXI/HS Multifuel Wood Gasification/Oil/Gas/Boiler with wood/natural gas. If I understand correctly, then install either panel radiators OR radiant floor heat and I should be pretty comfy.

I won't have a slab, it is a daylight basement so I don't know if that makes the floor heat more challenging or not.

Where do you live now?

kevin

if it were...

my house I would do the Natural gas... for everythig I could. Gas prices are a bit higher than before but still beats the price of electricity here in NE. I just moved from a home I had here in Dover that had natural. I now have oil (which is fine) but the range ,hot water, and the clothes dryer are all electric...not happy with the price or the performance. As soon as I get a chance I WILL convert...even if it is LP.
As far as a boiler would go check out the Munchkin by Heat transfer products odr the 124 series that Buderus makes.. The Vitodens I hear is also top notch.kpc

Mark A. Custis

Fuel and money

In Ohio gas is cheaper than oil, but as in Europe I sure the price of energy in what ever form will not go down in price.

Get the free Slant Fin heat loss calculator (even I figured out how to use it) and run it against your plans. Once you know what you will need in the way of BTUs, fuel cost becomes a math problem.

I tend to pamper myself whenever possible, so going first class seems affordable. Money spent up front on equipment and distribution will likely pay for itself in the long hual.

Kevin gives you good advise.

Mark

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kevin

im not...

very familiar with Baxi. I have heard of the company but not the model.I think the only supply house that has them is in Biddeford. I'll look at the web site. As a general feeling I 'm not wild about all in one boilers. I'm more comfortable with seperate units piped to a common supply header. kpc

Darin Cook_2

Natural Gas

Dan, Fortunately in the world of hydronic heating options are huge. I would hands down go with natural gas. There are some excellent nat. gas boilers out there (Munchkin, Viessman, Monitor, and others). These boilers have the ability to outperform a oil boiler regardless that fuel oil is cheaper in some cases than other fuels. Panel rads, trv's, outdoor reset, and constant circulation these are a awesome combination as my partner MH said. I did a new log home with just that combination and these folks are as happy as can be. Extremely efficient system and very,very comfortable. During the shoulder seasons this combination of boiler and system will literally squeeze the dollars out of the condensate. IF you are serious about a wood boiler check out the HS TARM wood gasification boiler and most assuredly use the heat storage tank with that system. It is crucial to the life span and efficiency of that boiler. Spent four brutal winters up at Loring AFB fixing broken water mains and fire hydrants. Luckily you are not that far up in potato land. Good Luck with you're project.

Louie

Alternative heat

Go with the hot water but use a Axeman-Anderson Anthatube
automatic coal fired stoker boiler. It pulls the coal right
out of the bin so theres no loading to worry about. they
are a piece of engineering magnificence. They are made in
Williamsport PA 1-570-326-9114 have them send you a color
brochure, they dont have a web site. Been around since 1946. To all the wethead out there, Floyds the man who could back up what I'm saying. The model you will need is a 130. All the P/S rules apply when piping the boiler.
It will cost you 1/3 of the cost of gas or oil to heat your home, I have one and you will NEVER regret it.

Louie

Steve Ebels

If you want to get really trick.......

You can take the aquastat off the outdoor wood boiler and install a reset control on it. Did this on one last year as an experiment. We set the curve on the outdoor unit about 10*'s higher than what the gas boiler control would call for and let it rip. The HO said his fuel "wood" consumption was less than usual by about 2 1/2 to 3 cords. BTW, if you get an outdoor wood fired unit, make sure it has a huge amount of water capacity. This makes for nice long burn times which in turn help with lessening creosote formation and efficiency of the unit.

hot_rod

Some clever ideas Steve

but if the standby gas or oil fired is keeping the outdoor unit from freezing, when unfired, you are using it as a cooling tower! Seems a good portion of your back up fuel is just going up the wood burners stack?

Seems we get that question a lot also, "How to keep outdoor units from freezing while un attended?" Hmmmmm, no free lunch on that one

I like the reset idea on the wood unit, as long as you leave the factory installed limit in place and somehow add the resert. Unless of course there is an additional "approved" high limit elsewhere in the unit.

I always look for an additional port on boilers to place another well for additional controls. It's nice to have the sensor in the boiler or fluid stream. I buy the Trerice wells about 5 bucks, and available in several sizes, most control sensors fit nicely in them.

Lots of interest in wood burners around here also, in these uncertain fuel times! Diesel jumped $.25 last week, ouch


hot rod

Mike T., Swampeast MO

One of the more interesting alternative heating methods

I read of was in Popular Mechanics installed somewhere in the NE (Vermont?).

Slab-on-grade. Deep gravel/sand plastic cover layer underneath with dry-fitted hollow concrete blocks layed sideways (holes lining up) with another layer of plastic, sand & gravel on top. Finish slab poured over.

One end of the block holes run to fresh air with an appropriate water baffle and insect screening. Other end incorporated to a ductwork system. Effect was a constant temperature air supply. Remaining heat came from a wood stove. Believe only 2-3 cords of wood was used for entire heating season with zero need for A/C. Home was fairly large with glass areas designed for passive solar.

Steve Ebels

No free lunch is right Hot Rod

It's a trade off of efficiency and cost of buying antifreeze for one of those outdoor hot water heaters. The Heatsource brand that my brothers sell in the hardware store hold 160 gallons of water. That's a lot of antifreeze to buy if you want to be able to shut it down. The way we usually handle the problem is to advise the HO to throttle back the flow from the HX back to the outdoor unit and leave the outdoor circ on constant. We've found that about a 1 gpm flow will still keep the units we sell at a cozy 60-65* water temp in any kind of weather. There's no deying that you are losing heat from the indoor unit but what else are you going to do? It's definitely not a situation where you would leave for a month in the winter and just let it run that way. For the occasional weekend out or even a week away it's not bad.

radiant

Dan, we are doing a project for a second home of one of our customers in Otisfield I don't know the area that well but we do get of the Turnpike in Gray. This project is all radiant floor as are all of our projects, it is by far the most efficient and comfortable way to heat your new home.. This project is all Dry-panels by Rehau If you would like to check it out let me know, you will not beleive the heat coming from these panels (at very low water temps) until you see it for yourself. This project has a Viessmann VB2 with an oil chassis burner but if you have natural gas the Vitodens will be the only way to go. WHen you couple the low water temps needed by these panels with the efficiency of the VItodens your fuel cost will be extremely low and your comfort level unparrelled.