Finding a Contractor (steam)

Mark Hunt

uhhh

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Eric Pearson

I tried using the Find A Contractor feature, but it didn't tell me anything about the companies' specialties.

We have a 1927 house in a northern Detroit suburb (Royal Oak area) with a single-pipe steam system. We found out yesterday that the boiler (a Utica PEG 262S) has developed a crack near the top, and needs to be replaced. We still have heat so we can take our time and get some quotes, but I don't want to sit on this for too long.

When I noticed the problem I called the company who has done some steam work for me in the past (pinhole leaks, replacing valves and vents, etc.). They confirmed that the boiler was cracked and they have given me a quote to replace it. But I have now done some reading about this, and I talked to the Utica Boiler customer service department, and it sounds like we need more than "plug in an exact replacement". The pipes need to be flushed, and we probably need to have the boiler size re-evaluated. The previous owners removed several radiators, and we keep two turned off. And since this is not the original boiler, who knows if it's the right size to begin with?

I have called several companies for quotes, but I haven't talked to anybody that I feel confident about. I have only done some basic research, and I am not trying to be a know-it-all-homeowner, but when I ask people about flushing the pipes they don't know what I am talking about. And the Utica rep said that's a very important step.

Everything I have read from this web site says that this is more complicated than "plumbing". This is a big job, and I want to have it done right the first time. How do I go about finding a steam contractor who knows what the heck he is doing?

-- Eric Pearson, Huntington Woods, Michigan

Rod Bixler

steam

If you used a contractor before and had good results. Why not stick with him? He may have already measured your radiators and sized the boiler to fit. I have never been told how to flush an old steam system. We do however add a cleaner of sorts when we replace a boiler. If the system had any type of sealer used on it in the past the clean up can take several call backs. This is something that no-one knows untill the new controls start to get fouled up.

Eric Pearson

I don't know who to trust

Rod --

Thanks for the response.

> If you used a contractor before and had good
> results. Why not stick with him?

The advice he is giving me is different from the advice I am getting from the boiler manufacturer and from this web site, which seems to have a lot of good, authoritative information about steam systems.

For example http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=130 says...

"Don't let the contractor base the size of your new boiler on the size of your old boiler. He must measure your radiators and analyze their ability..." (etc.)

> He may have already measured your radiators
> and sized the boiler to fit.

Sorry I wasn't clear about that. The boiler is from around 1976 and was here when I moved in 7 years ago. My plumber is telling me that it takes a lot of complicated calculations to measure a system and that he never does it. He estimates the size of the boiler based on... experience, I guess. He may know what he is doing, but this web site is telling me there's more to it than simply replacing the boiler with a new version of what's there.

Can I do the calculations myself and see what size boiler I need?

-- Eric

DanHolohan

I don't think

that's a good answer that he gave you. It's not at all complicated. It just takes a bit of time to measure the radiators and look over the whole system.

Eric Pearson

Can I calculate it myself?

I have now had 3 different companies come to see the boiler to give me an estimate, and everybody is saying "replace it with a slightly smaller one" without ever leaving the basement to see the rest of the system. I have 3 more coming tomorrow and right now my only hope is finding somebody -- from recommendations from friends and the luck of the draw in the Yellow Pages -- who knows how to do the calculations.

Is calculating the boiler size something that I can learn to do myself? I'm really good with math and I understand the basic engineering concepts. If I can even do a rough estimate I will feel more confident about installing the size boiler that everybody is recommending. The last guy told me that you have to know when the radiators were built, how big the pipes are, how many angles... Even if those things are true I can estimate them and get a better answer than "replace it with the same size".

And nobody seems to want to flush the pipes. They say it can cause problems and it doesn't do any good. Any opinions about that?

Mark Hunt

> I have now had 3 different companies come to see

> the boiler to give me an estimate, and everybody

> is saying "replace it with a slightly smaller

> one" without ever leaving the basement to see the

> rest of the system. I have 3 more coming

> tomorrow and right now my only hope is finding

> somebody -- from recommendations from friends and

> the luck of the draw in the Yellow Pages -- who

> knows how to do the calculations.

>

> Is

> calculating the boiler size something that I can

> learn to do myself? I'm really good with math

> and I understand the basic engineering concepts.

> If I can even do a rough estimate I will feel

> more confident about installing the size boiler

> that everybody is recommending. The last guy

> told me that you have to know when the radiators

> were built, how big the pipes are, how many

> angles... Even if those things are true I can

> estimate them and get a better answer than

> "replace it with the same size".

>

> And nobody

> seems to want to flush the pipes. They say it

> can cause problems and it doesn't do any good.

> Any opinions about that?

John@Reliable

It's real simple Eric

Pick the one who looks at the system in basement and talks to you about any concerns and your comfort.Then they MUST go into every room in the house. He/she will measure each raditor,then back in office will look up the sq. ft. of steam that each raditor needs,add for piping loss to come up with size boiler you need.If you have to ask for them to do this I wouldn't let them do job. Hope this helps John@Reliable

Mark Hunt

Sizing steam

As Dan said, it isn't all that complicated to size the radiators.



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DanHolohan

This will help

http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=130

David Efflandt

Get the knowledge (Lost Art...)

Order "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" from this website to help recognize what is right, or not. It can also help you determine EDR of radiators which is important for boiler sizing (another book has more radiator details).

Even if I underestimated EDR of my 1-pipe radiators (158 sq ft), my boiler is rated almost double that (283 sq ft),so it cycles on pressure when radiators are hot. But boiler is only 2 yrs old, so replacement would not be cost effective. That and somewhat incorrect near boiler (copper) piping would lead me to look elsewhere than original installer for future service.

David Efflandt

Get the knowledge (Lost Art...)

Order "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" from this website to help recognize what is right, or not. It can also help you determine EDR of radiators which is important for boiler sizing (another book has more radiator details).

Even if I underestimated EDR of my 1-pipe radiators (158 sq ft) in house purchased last summer, my boiler is rated almost double that (283 sq ft),so it cycles on pressure when radiators are hot. But boiler is only 2 yrs old, so replacement would not be cost effective. That and somewhat incorrect near boiler (copper) piping would lead me to look elsewhere than my original installer for future service.

Mark Hunt

Sizing yourself

If you use the chart I have posted a picture of, you should be able to figure out for yourself what size boiler you need. Try printing the chart, I got a little carried away with the sizing!!

Measure all of the radiators like it shows in the chart. Determine whether you have tube type or column type radiators.

When you think you've got it, post your measurements and calculations here and we'll check it out for you.

I have often quoted jobs that other contractors had recommended much larger boilers on. When the inevitable question of why my boiler is smaller comes up, I have the customer do the math with me.

Hope this helps!

Mark H

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Eric Pearson

Thanks

David --

> Order "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" from this website

I have been tearing the house apart looking for my copy. I bought it a while back when I was having some problems. May just have to pop for another copy...

Thanks!

-- Eric

Eric Pearson

Thanks

John --

> If you have to ask for them to do this I wouldn't let them do job.

So far I am zero for three. Hopefully I will have better luck tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice!

-- Eric

Eric Pearson

Thanks

Dan --

> This will help

I'm all over it. {smile} Actually I quoted that page in an earlier message.

What a fantastic resource this web site is!

Thanks!

-- Eric

Eric Pearson

Sizing myself

Mark --

That's fantastic, thanks! I'll measure all of the radiators first thing in the morning, and post the numbers here. A couple of quick questions before I get started...

1) When I printed it out, the top of the page says Two-pipe Steam but I have a one-pipe system. Does that change the math?

2) We have column radiators (no horizontal lines) but I don't think I understand how to count the columns. The printed sheet lists "1 column" and I am having trouble picturing that. The way I count, the one shown on the sheet is a 3-column, right?

3) Do you have an opinion about whether or not I should count radiators that we currently have turned off? For example we like a cool/cold bedroom so that one is always off. But I want to size the boiler so that future owners will be comfortable too. Is it better to count the turned-off radiators, or will that give us a boiler that is too large and cause problems for us?

-- Eric

Mark Hunt

Answers!


I grabbed the "two pipe" book instead of the "one pipe" book, but that changes nothing. Sizing is the same.

Yes.. the column type radiator in the picture is a "3 column", see how "difficult" this is?

YOU MUST COUNT ALL THE RADIATORS!! You or the folks that own the home after you may want those rads to work again. You would be in bigger trouble if you didn't count them.

Now go have some fun!!

I believe in educating my customers! You will soon know more about sizing than the pro's you've talked to so far!

You know where to find help if you need it!!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Eric Pearson

Radiator numbers

Mark --

Here are the numbers. I couldn't make it readable in a message (the system seems to want to remove multiple spaces so the columns don't line up) so I have attached a text file.

I really appreciate your help!

-- Eric

Eric Pearson

Following up...

We finally found a steam contractor who talks the talk, and who asked all the right questions. That's one out of seven, but one is enough!

We haven't told him that he has the job yet, but will later today when we finalize the boiler size. (He visits The Wall, so he might read about it here before he hears from me. Are you listening, D.C.?) While everybody was suggesting the same size boiler, or one size smaller, we are actually going to increase the boiler size. (Since nobody posted any corrections I'm assuming that I did the math right.)

For what it's worth, I think this web site and bulletin board represent a great marketing opportunity for the well-qualified pros who come here. If I was a steam contractor I would send out postcards to everybody in my area, suggesting that they visit here. If a homeowner reads the free advice on this site they would be highly motivated to spend the time required to find the right people!

Thanks again to everybody who pitched in with advice!

-- Eric Pearson

JM_2

I envy you

because you have the chance to set your system right. I am like you in that I am an involved homeowner not a know-it-all. My house is about 100 yrs old, I have owned it for two, and the boiler is about 4yrs old. The previous owners obviously went with the low bid. While the house does heat some radiators gurgle, heat slowly or sometimes not at all, all the vents look to be about 10 yrs old I don't think that any two are alike. The maine vent looks like a radiator vent with no vertical extension, I am sure it doesnt vent at all. I also have all copper near boiler piping which is already begining to leak. I shudder to think what i will find when i do th sizing calculations. My radiators are big 42" 3column 8-10 section. The mansonry chimney is probably falling apart inside as well. ( I hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me).

I spoke with a plumbing and heating guy recently about changing over the piping to steel and he told me that "copper was fine. If it heats dont mess with it" Do the job right especially if you are a homeowner who cares.

JM

Mark A. Custis

Near boiler Piping

Get the copper out of there. Inspect then possibly line the masonary flue. Some one will be glad to help you get it right.

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Eric Pearson

Following Up (more)

Ok, I really hope that this will be my last post about this. This is fun, but I would like to wrap this up soon. {smile}

Shortly after I posted my last "follow up" message I received an email from Noel Murdough of Slant/Fin. He had seen my posts here and was concerned that I was using a "generic" spec sheet (see message from Mark Hunt) for my calculations, and he said that "small differences can add up". In the interest of fine-tuning my numbers I told him what we had, and he was kind enough to fax me the spec sheets for our exact radiators, American Cortos from 1921. (Isn't modern communication just amazing sometimes?)

The numbers were way, way off. The bottom line is that our radiators are apparently not the column type after all, they are the tube type. They look more like the picture of the column-type radiators, and I guess I let my pre-conceived ideas about what a "tube" is get in the way. Our 5-column radiators are only 8 inches wide, and Noel picked up on that right away.

So all of my numbers had to be re-worked. Significantly.

My original conclusion was that we needed to install the largest boiler that Utica makes, and even that wasn't going to be quite big enough. It puts out 760 sq.ft. and we needed 850.

Using the new numbers (and a lot of advice from Noel by phone and email) it now appears that that would have been a serious mistake. The actual number for our house is around 525 sq.ft. not 850. So we are now going to order a boiler that is 2 sizes smaller, right in the middle of the Utica line. It puts out 556 sq. ft, which is just about right. The boiler I almost bought would have been almost 40% too big. (For reference, our house is around 3750 sq.ft. plus a full basement. That's good sized, but I guess I should have known that we would not require Utica's largest residential boiler.)

I should have used the tube-type numbers instead of the column-type numbers on the sheet that Mark posted for me. My bad. That would still not have been as accurate as "the real thing" but it would have been closer.

I still don't understand where the "pickup factor" of 33% comes in, but Noel ran the numbers and assured me that the specs on the Corto sheets and the specs on the Utica boiler sheets are calculated in the same way, so I am not going to worry about it.

One last time... thanks to everybody here, and especially Noel for the final "kicker".

-- Eric Pearson