\"Real\" costs

Paul Cooke

"In this regard a device of less final combusion efficiency that can last indefinitely can actually be much more efficient over its life than a device with high combustion efficiency but greater energy of production and much shorter service life."

is the key to the debate over cast iron vs. condensing equipment.

I would love to read what others say about this in this thread.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Does anyone else find this statement by Tom Meyer (and ostensibly via W-M) troubling? "The jury is still out on how it will react in the long term, but Weil-McLain told us the expected life of the Ultra is 10-15 years."

Remember that the final cost of any product is highly reflective of the amount of energy required to produce it.

True energy savings only occur after a "high efficiency" device has outlived the energy of production compared to the energy of production of a less "efficient" device. Recall that at industrial levels energy is still amazingly cheap.

In this regard a device of less final combusion efficiency that can last indefinitely can actually be much more efficient over its life than a device with high combustion efficiency but greater energy of production and much shorter service life.

I've heard from good authority of ignitors (of all things) in some condensing boilers engineered to be expected to last nearly as long...let alone the HX (the presumed limitation here).

For an example: The extremely high grade rubber roof below an upper balcony on my house most certainly took LOTS of energy to produce--MUCH more than any other product of which I am aware. However, research demonstrates that such products have been in use for decades and if installed properly can be reasonably expected to last beyond my lifetime. While its energy of production certainly exceeds that of more conventional products its service life allows it to be the more "green" product.

Paul Cooke

\"Real Costs\"

Mike

You have asked some important questions. When one looks at the "whole" picture, answers are not so simple.

Watching a cast iron boiler section being made last week, I was able to see what it takes to put a boiler together. And, I am not just talking about raw materials and energy required, I am also considering the sweat of the workers involved.

Consider a flat plate solar collector. What does it take to mine the copper and aluminum? Add in the manufacturing of the tempered glass and fiberglass insulation and then ask if everyone could have a couple of these on their roof.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks Paul

An interesting "thought of the day" from Merriam-Webster, "A problem well stated is a problem half solved."
- John Dewey

Thanks again Dan for recommending this (and "word of the day" and "link of the day") a couple of years ago.

p.s. Were it not for providence, I too would have been there to see the "sweat".

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Inappropriate Use

When I stated that my high-grade EPDM roof "took more energy than any roofing product of which I am aware" I likely was in error.

The wild "teflon" roof at Denver International Airport was likely fantastically expensive energy wise.

Too bad they put a "circus tent" in an environment well-known for exceptionally heavy snows instead of the desert where it belongs...

That entire airport should go down in history as an engineering disaster along with "Galloping Gertie"! I'll never forget seeing the test baggage after it traveled through the "state-of-the-art" completely automated handling system that had to be abandoned.

Paul Cooke

Chicago

Tom Goebig said you were supposed to be there. Would have liked to meet you. Perhaps at the next one. Are you coming west for the RPA in May?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Seriously doubt it

as I'm not officially a member of any trade and believe I would be ineligible for membership in the RPA. Of course the airlines seem desperate, income tax will be paid and perhaps Hotrod could swing a guest?

PJO

Thoughts...

First, I am an environmetalist....take it as you may. Second, I am not a contractor, but have some experience in energy use vs. initial cost/efficiency, etc.

I have a cast iron boiler in my home...went with oil, and there wasn't anything condensing five years ago (now, I believe the Monitor is the only one). I would probably still choose cast iron for this particular situation because;
1) Up front cost is about 10 to 25% less.
2) If installed properly, the life of the equipment is at least 25 years (last home's boiler was 35 and
still kickin').
3) Maintenance issues...this one is more complicated, but I would like to believe the cast iron is at
least even...if not less.
4) Efficiency. I give up about 6% efficiency or so...mine is tested every year and is 86% to 87%...
I think it's more important that your SYSTEM is very efficient, and while it's tough to get a number

140 psi...about 100k btuh output. In S.E. Pa, I burned less than 1,000 gallons this year... highest use yet.
5) While I may do slightly better each year with a condenser, my total use of fuel each year is still
close with my set-up, I believe. I would say 10% less fuel...100 gallons would be a good guess
for this year.

I don't think I could get that combination with a condensing boiler. While a gas situation may be different beacause of modulation and a better selection of equipment, I fully expect this boiler to work fine in 30 years. No offense to Monitor or anybody, but that's probably not gonna happen with the others. I would be into a second unit in that time, and maybe worrying about the next purchase.

I had considered a geothermal heat pump, but allergies/breathing problems are prevalent with my wife and kids. Comfort was a no-brainer here...radiant is king IMHO. Water to water with radiant is another possibility, but the up-front cost is even higher...how's the lifespan (I don't know)? I do like the lowered pollution level (no fuel), but will my electric bill stay around $110.00 per month? Earthfire could have some input here...

In the meantime, I am pursuing solar...talk about efficiency vs. up-front cost! If I can get solar to make my hot water and help some with the heat, I will be in heaven...and will hopefully cut my fuel usage (and pollution) in half or more.
If the solar system last 20 years with minimal maintenance, that would be superb.

Just my thoughts...sorry for the ramble. Take Care, PJO

Mike T., Swampeast MO

AFUE (or other efficiency \"measures\")

don't though seem to tell the entire story...

From the "real world" stories (from here, from engineers, from others) the fuel reduction in some applications seems to be MUCH greater than the 10% or so difference would imply--these reductions even with lower cost condensing models and nearly phenomenally so with a certain "space-age" burner.

Speak up (and out)!

Steamhead

AFUE isn't a perfect measurement

just as EPA gas mileage isn't a perfect measurement. What these two measuring techniques do is give the consumer a way to compare one unit to another by testing them the same way.

With any heating system, once the boiler (or furnasty, for the unlucky ones) produces the heat, its job is done. From that point, the system must move the heat to the rooms. This is where many heating systems lose efficiency, and it's one reason I got into working with steam systems. Boiler manufacturers have made their gear much more efficient over the past few decades- it's our job to make sure the systems in which these boilers are installed are as efficient as they can be.

But in our quest for higher efficiency, we cannot sacrifice dependability. We've seen many threads here on the Wall about cutting-edge boilers that keep breaking down. In some cases, replacement parts have been hard to find and took a while to get. Try telling a customer they have to wait a week for a new circuit board on a 20-degree day. If I were the customer I would find that unacceptable.

This is why we have continued installing cast-iron boilers that use standardized control systems. In most cases, these boilers are much more efficient than the units they replace, and are no less dependable. I can sleep better on a 5-degree night knowing we've installed boilers that won't break down at the worst possible moment.

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Unknown

That sentence

has my complete attention . We installed a few high efficiency condensing boilers in the past , but it was so long ago I dont remember the brand , or how they lasted in the long run - compared to conventional equipment . Being a complete novice to this type of equipment , what is the life expectancy of the properly maintained good brands ?

Steamhead

Mike

if building owners and home inspectors can attend Wetstock- which they did- you should feel free to attend RPA.

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[Deleted User]

Trust me...

you too can join the RPA.

Would love to see you there.

www.radiantpanelassociation.org

ME

PJO

I agree with Steamhead...

and I also have another item to metion.

The total system, as I stated before, is more important than the AFUE and everybody here probably agrees with that. How well the home is insulated/vented, use of passive solar if possible (my house is great for it), and the house being of reasonable size itself are all very imporatnt factors IMHO. Putting in deciduous trees on the south side, and evergreens on the horth side lets Momma nature do her thing as well.

Here's an example of real cost considering HVAC; I finished the basement two years ago, and was considering the heat and A/C. I ended-up putting Drylok on my cinderblock foundation, attaching 1.5" blueboard insulation, and I have no heat or A/C there...some latent heat from the boiler room and kids running around like crazy, and it stays cool in the summer without ever using a humidifier.

Most people would add heat and A/C here...just run some duct off their FHA I suppose...but I have added absolutely no more load to my boiler or A/C and is that not adding to the TOTAL efficiency? I added about 700 sq. ft. of living area with no additional heat or A/C load. My up-front cost was minimal with my own labor...and my brother's :-) so the "real cost issue" is absolutely minimal, right? If I can just get a beer meister down there, I'll really be in heaven!

Plus, I have done a good thing for Mother Earth as well, while still making more living space in my home.

Just my thoughts. Take Care, PJO