Another request for experience of others Bill Clinton

Duncan

When possible, I like to get the manifold loops circ going full speed, and slam a ball valve shut. This is while tubing is all installed and visible, no sheetrock up yet.

You should see how that tubing jumps! And makes noise. If you're going to have any tubing noises, this helps find where it might happen. It's a good technique if you can get your piping buttoned up before the rock.

Bill Clinton_2

noise problem

Is a suspended tube system ever totally quiet. I mean TOTALLY. I have a system that did have objectionable pops and ticks which I fixed, no questions asked. However, after the fixing, I had a hyper-sensitive (in my view at least) customer standing there with an acute ear and listening as the system went from dead cold to probably 110 degrees air temperature in the joist space (150 degree water temp). Over a period of ten minutes or so, a few faint noises were heard. The cause was unknown: It could conceivably have been the tube (although it had plastic isolators everywhere it touched wood, and plastic hangers).
It could also be (and in my mind likely is) movement of wood structure as it warms. To tell the truth, I had never before listened so intently to one of my systems. I have since listened to a few in this manner and do hear a very occasional and very faint sound while the system warms up, so I am of a mind to say an occasional faint sound is probably normal.

I'd like to know the experience of others as there is a particularly sticky situation shaping up over this one job.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill Clinton_2

Have an upset with a customer regarding creaks and ticks from a suspended tube radiant heat system. This is the first time this problem has come up for me and I have taken responsibility for a great deal of it. A combination of measures I took in the interest of creating a better system ganged up on me and created a worse system.

What would happen was that when the system first came on in the morning, the tube would be hit with a rush of 160 degree water (already

Bill Clinton_2

Have an upset with a customer regarding creaks and ticks from a suspended tube radiant heat system. This is the first time this problem has come up for me and I have taken responsibility for a great deal of it. A combination of measures I took in the interest of creating a better system ganged up on me and created a worse system.

What would happen was that when the system first came on in the morning, the tube would be hit with a rush of 160 degree water (already

Bill Clinton_2

Have an upset with a customer regarding creaks and ticks from a suspended tube radiant heat system. This is the first time this problem has come up for me and I have taken responsibility for a great deal of it. A combination of measures I took in the interest of creating a better system ganged up on me and created a worse system.

What would happen was that when the system first came on in the morning, the tube would be hit with a rush of 160 degree water (already

kevin_5

Mine isn't totally silent

Our bedroom has radiant ceiling under staple up, so we have two layers going for us.
We also have about three different zones over our heads, and we don't have constant circulation. It is 1/2" non barrier (aquapex) which I've heard is a little quieter because it's slipprier than he-pex.
We can hear a little noise when it heats up, but to us it doesn't seem annoying in the least.
(If you use your imagination while listening at night, it could possibly sound like water from a leak slowly dripping on sheetrock)
I've done other staple up jobs in new construction and retrofit and have never had a complaint, I can't say if they're absolutely silent or if it's just that my clients aren't as neurotic as the California type!

Wirsbo's system differs from the others that I've heard Dan write about in that it isn't stapled tightly to the floor and not nearly as many staples are installed. I wonder if there is a difference in noise in these different methods?
I guess it would be good for us all to recommend constant circ. and possibly that a certain amount of noise is "normal"? Otherwise there's always the overpour. Hope you can make them happy without going crazy yourself. Kevin

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John Van

Pretty darn quiet

We have a staple up installation in our old farmhouse. There are no isolators where the tubing goes through the joists. The staples are from Mangone. No heat transfer plates. It used to tick a lot with the bang bang control as originally installed. Now we have constant circulation with outdoor reset and VSI (Tekmar 361). I haven't heard a click or tick all winter.

hot_rod

Be hard pressed

to have a system that doesn't have tube movement. I think. Now the trick is to minimize the movement and alow movement without noise.

Tube with the shiney EVOH barrier on the outside actually seem to make more noise. Something to do with that layer rubbing on other plastic or wood.

Certainly constant circ, and small, slow temperature extremes will lessen the movement and noise. I feel the PAP tube helps a lot also.

This same dynamic is happening with transfer plates! The tight tube fit lessens the tube to plate movement, but something has to move! Usually the loop ends will be the spot where it is noticeable.

Take a long length of transfer plate, nail or screw it to a piece of plywood. Snap a piece if 1/2" copper into the groove. Then dump 180 degrees to it! You may be surprised at what you see Something, somewhere is gonna move, it has to

hot rod

[Deleted User]

It's the nature of the beast...

Anytime you substantially change the state of operation of something with a high coefficient of expansion, it WILL grow. When it grows, noise can be expected. The amount of noise is commensurate with the change in state. If the change is subtle, over a long period of time, it will still make noises, it's just that the noises are spread out over a longer span in time. Also, the changes are more subtle, hence the instantaneous noises is less.

I did one stapleup job with a former employer. It was a bang-bang control, and it sounded like a herd of crickets was running through the joist bays whenever the system started. The HO was adamant about wanting staple up installed as opposed to our recommendation of tube on the floor in gyp. After having lived with it for a year, she was just about ready to abandon the system in place and redo the whole system. I left the company so I'm not sure what the resoloution was.

We warned her in advanced to no avail.

Not knowing how your system is configured, it is hard to give a final recommendation, however, I'd recommend that you consider changing the system to continuous circ with outdoor reset, and putting that zone on its own non-electric TRV (Oventrop Uni Box or Danfoss equivilant). This way, you will accelerate the panel VERY slowly, avoid under/overshoot and keep the tube temperature changes to a minimum over a long period of time.

Don't forget the need for a pressure activated bypass at the system circulator.

Not an easy fix for sure, but a heck of a lot better than litigation or worse.

JMHO

ME

Boonierat

Noise Problem

Noise is subjective, often hard to get a client to understand that. Reality is that ANYTIME you change the temperature of ANYTHING it's going to expand or contract. It's physics. Wether it's a suspended or staple up radiant system, a slab or scorched air............doesn't matter. Change the temperature, molecules move faster/slower and stuff moves around. I've had to have this conversation with hoemowners on behalf of our clients a number of times, some understand, some don't, some use this as an excuse because they've got another agenda.

Duncan_2

I think you're right, Bill.

An occasional faint sound is normal. Wood expands and contracts with heat just like any other material. In my home when the sun comes up after a freezing night, there are lots of expansion noises as the sun warms the wood floors, deck, patio doors.

Your post must have lodged in the back of my mind. This morning as I was drifting off to sleep. I heard very slight ticking noises in the heated wooden floor of my bedroom.

The construction is such that there is NO WAY it could have been tubing rubbing anywhere. You see, it's a "ladder" built of 1/2" copper, suspended. Wherever the 1/2" pipe passes through a TJI joist or lumber, I drilled a 1-3/8" hole. Foam pipe insulation was used as sleeving, -the slippery cheap stuff, not Armaflex, which grips more- and it was a fairly loose fit. The entire radiator was, in effect, FLOATING in the joist spaces.

And with on/off control, the floor still made some slight noise as it expanded and contracted. Not enough to make a difference, though. Very quiet.

In my younger days I was a glazier, worked for a guy who'd been in the biz 35 years, he did some pretty esoteric jobs, stuff nobody else knew how to do, and the quality of his work was unsurpassed.

Jobs for people who covered their walls in mirrors inspired a sense of dread in me on the first visit. The reason was - a larger percentage of them are absolute perfectionists! I could mirror an 8x20 wall, 160 square feet of surface, and way, way over down in one little corner, there might be the tiniest little speck or imperfection in the silvering, and I'd have to rip it out. Not easy wrestling with a 3x8 piece of 1/4" plate glass mirror.

I'm talking something barely discernable t othe naked eye. I know that ten seconds after I left, they were going over the job with Windex and a magnifying glass. We delivered the best product and installation available, and still, it wasn't good enough for those few unfortunate crazies. They could not be satisfied unless they found SOMETHING wrong with the job. And it wasn't as simple as trying to find some reason to get a break in price. Only replacement would do.

What I'm tryin' to say is that some people are NUTS! Absolute compulsive perfectionists, it's a disease. I don't know how it translates to the radiant floor biz, but in the glass biz, it was the mirror-wall people. I think you found one of these. Most were regular folk, but a certain percentage of them were helplessly whacky. It was practically torture to work for them, like walking on eggshells.

Oh well....

hot_rod

Good bottom line Duncan!

There will always be a certain, small percentage of the population that just can't or won't be pleased. Part of life on this planet, I suppose.

I'm just glad that it's Bill customer. This time

hot rod

hot_rod

Great idea, Duncan

It's also a good way to find crimp or solder joints you may have missed

hot rod

Bill Clinton_2

Thanks to all nm