Staple-up radiant without heat emmision plates

Dave Yates (PAH) · February 2003

Here's the first room:

Bar - over a basement that's not heated & no insulation in the joist bays - suspended tubing with no direct contact to flooring or joists - room dim = 10' x 10' & 9' ceiling - area above heated from same source - design temp 70/0 - unheated area #1 = 20 sq ft - unheated area #2 = 20 sq ft - exposed wall R-20 10x9 with 2x3 glass. Floor surface temp = 104.7 & loop water temp = 441.8 F!

The same with joist trak plates - again, no insulation = 104.7 surface & loop temp of 284.2. Hummmnnnnn, sure seems like a dramatic drop in loop temp to me.

Add R-11 under the plates = 81.4 surface (still slightly over the 80 for hardwood) & loop of 138

Beef that up to R-19 = 80.6 surface & loop of 132

Pretty darn close to achieving a workable solution. Suspended with R-11 & no plates (to be fair regarding comparison)? 81.4 surface, which exceeds hardwood rating & 192.2 loop, which exceeds tube ratings of 180 max. Although the surface temps are almost identical, the addition of joist trak plates lowered the loop temp by 35 degrees. Saves energy & reduces stress on system components.

Mud Room sleepers on old concrete slab on grade - no insulation - tube laid loose.

10x8 with 8 ceiling - 10 & 8 walls exposed - ceiling exposed - door on 8 wall & 4x4 glass on 10 wall.

89.8 surface with 330.6 degree F loop!

Supplimental heating must be added but if I could have had access to the underside - added joist trak plates & insulated to R-11 we'd be seeing 82.4 surface with 170 loop temps. Beef it to R-19 & that's become 82.1 & 173.

Once again - could work.

More expensive up front costs? No doubt in my mind that's true. Better design? No question that that's da fact Jack.

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JTel · February 2003

Staple-up radiant without heat emmision plates

I've just finished a staple-up radiant job in my own home. I am heating through (2)subfloors, mud, then ceramic tile (Aprox. 1-3/4" total thickness). I used 3/8" tubing with a 6" spread stapled right to the subfloor. I insulated with a foil batt fiberglass insulation and maintained a 2" air gap. It is a small room so I only needed I loop, the loop legenth is aprox. 210'.

Now I have been letting the zone run for 24 hours straight and I can't get the room hotter than 65 degrees. I am using 150 degree supply water and I get back 120 deg. on the return. The floor only gets luke warm. I did not insulate the ends on the bays. Would i benefit from emission plates?

My other problem is my boiler is controlled by outdoor reset, if i need such hot water for this radiant zone, i'll have to crank up the heat curve and that defeats the whole purpose of the outdoor reset.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

JTel · February 2003

Staple-up radiant without heat emmision plates

I've just finished a staple-up radiant job in my own home. I am heating through (2)subfloors, mud, then ceramic tile (Aprox. 2" total thickness). I used 3/8" tubing with a 6" spread stapled right to the subfloor. I insulated with a foil batt fiberglass insulation and maintained a 2" air gap. It is a small room so I only needed I loop, the loop legenth is aprox. 210'.

Now I have been letting the zone run for 24 hours straight and I can't get the room hotter than 65 degrees. I am using 150 degree supply water and I get back 120 deg. on the return. The floor only gets luke warm. I did not insulate the ends on the bays. Would i benefit from emission plates?

My other problem is my boiler is controlled by outdoor reset, if i need such hot water for this radiant zone, i'll have to crank up the heat curve and that defeats the whole purpose of the outdoor reset.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

JTel · February 2003

Staple-up radiant without heat emmision plates

I've just finished a staple-up radiant job in my own home. I am heating through (2)subfloors, mud, then ceramic tile (Aprox. 2" total thickness). I used 3/8" tubing with a 6" spread stapled right to the subfloor. I insulated with a foil batt fiberglass insulation and maintained a 2" air gap. It is a small room so I only needed I loop, the loop legenth is aprox. 210'.

Now I have been letting the zone run for 24 hours straight and I can't get the room hotter than 65 degrees. I am using 150 degree supply water and I get back 120 deg. on the return. The floor only gets luke warm. I did not insulate the ends on the bays. Would i benefit from emission plates?

My other problem is my boiler is controlled by outdoor reset, if i need such hot water for this radiant zone, i'll have to crank up the heat curve and that defeats the whole purpose of the outdoor reset. And won't the outdoor reset cause the radiant zone to lag behind?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

hot_rod · February 2003

Can you measure

the floor surface temperature some how? If it is 85 ish that's about as hot as you want to get the tile. What is the load calc for the room? How thick of batts underneath?

Small rooms can sometimes throw you a curve, It's called heat flux, and it has to do with the amount of square footage without cabinets, etc that is available to meet the btu load for the room. Sometimes you just can't get there from here:)

Certainly quality transfer plates, properly installed, would make a big difference if you are not getting the heat to the floor.

hot rod

Mike T., Swampeast MO · February 2003

Radiant Engineering

Bozeman, Montana

With that construction you need SERIOUS conductive heat transfer.

JTel · February 2003

Well the room measures 9'x 16' with a vaulted ceiling that peaks to 10'. there are many windows also about 72 sq. ft. of glass (Anderson windows double hung). I have about 3-4 inches of insulation under the foil. There are no cabinets in this part of the room just table and chairs.

JTel · February 2003

so i guess the heat emission plates are the way to go.

tombig · February 2003

Radiant Engineering

Dale from R.E. just sent me some samples of their aluminum track. Quality stuff. Quality guy. Here's a cool (or hot) thermal image from an Ipex manual.

Chris Maderia · February 2003

You must use

plates. This still may not help you though. The R-Value of the floor is very high - around 1.9 maybe even higher. While on the warmer days the radiant may seem to be sufficient but when you get down to those design degree days you still may have problems.

hot_rod · February 2003

Still

you need to do a heat loss calc. You mentioned lots of glass which I assume means some outside walls also.

Personally I feel 20 BTUs / sq. ft. is a max. number for staple up at 150-160 temperatures. I still feel your load is out of reach of your application.

Use the free Slant Fin calculator at this web site to get a better handle on your actual load.

I'm mean your bathroom's load

The plates may get you there, but why do I have a I have a feeling you have rubber tube:) I haven't seen an alumunum plate that will fit this tube. You may have to pex or copper to use transfer plates.

hot rod

joel_14 · February 2003

no plates

Personally I've always thought that no plates shoul be against code in all but the most southern climates. You have to put the water temp so much higher it defeats the purpose of radiant altogether which is to lower the water temps. Also make sure the ends of your bays are wellsealed with caulk or exspandy foam and insulate the end of the bay.
Even with all that you may need temporary heat

Brian · February 2003

Heat Plates

> Personally I've always thought that no plates

> shoul be against code in all but the most

> southern climates. You have to put the water temp

> so much higher it defeats the purpose of radiant

> altogether which is to lower the water temps.

> Also make sure the ends of your bays are

> wellsealed with caulk or exspandy foam and

> insulate the end of the bay. Even with all that

> you may need temporary heat

Brian · February 2003

Heat Plates

I am so tired of seeing that chart on the comparison between plates and non.Why don't they do a comparison between plates and joist heating (pipes off floor about a 1").Do plates have their place, yes.Just like 6" centres have their place over 12" centres.I look at protecting my lines and if it means the water temp being 20 degrees higher so that the ceramic guy doesn't nail my line then so be it.I think part of the problem is your delta t.If you put plates on then it will increase.Either you have a restriction in your line or your pump is too small.Your temp. dif. should only be 10 degrees with that short of loop assuming that you used 1/2" pipe. Also make sure your belts are insulated.

Good Luck
Brian

Boilerpro_2 · February 2003

Rubber tubing = higher output in staple up.

If you have the Watts rubber tubing you will be getting higher output at same water temps due to larger contact area with floor. You'll need to get the watts enginnering data to see what you real capacity is....the Pex staple up
info does not apply.

Boilerpro

tombig · February 2003

Plates

I've used Ultra Fin, a non contact aluminum emmitter,that rivets around suspended tube for floor warming applications. This allows for higher circ temps. For space heating, future floor coverings and design days still would worry me.

hot_rod · February 2003

How exactly

would that code read, Joel? "Radiant Floor heat shall only be installed with heat transfer plates"

What about a small bath or kitchen floor in Rhode Island with a load of 12- 15 BTUs / sq. ft. load.

Certainly attainable without plates at reasonable supply temperatures.

Would it be like the soup nazi "No radiant for YOU, next"

hot rod

KCA_2 · February 2003

My thoughts.

for what it's worth. A 30deg DT seems a little high. You must be able to tell the difference on the tile floor. Was the hotter part of the run on the outside wall are (area of most heat loss) if not.....
What R value is the insulation?
What pump are you using?

Plates help by about 5%. (I know that I'll get called for that!)

But I've done research myself.

:-) Kca

chuck shaw · February 2003

I know many will not agree with me

but I don't understand the statement "You must use plates". Plates will only do three things for you on a properly designed system.

1)Lower your water temperature

2)Give you a higher BTU/square foot output, at the same temperature as a staple or clip system, which is limited by comfortable floor temp (appx 85*F).

3)They may give you a faster response time.

If that is all that can be done, why is it a must? For a system to operate corectly, the design is as important as the installation.

Chuck Shaw

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Steve Minnich_1 · February 2003

I'm surprised

by some of the answers given here. I think Chuck made the best argument for plates inadvertently. Also, in my opinion, it comes down to two words--THERMAL MASS. If you have the opportunity to have it, why wouldn't you?

It's like Heatboy says, or was it Hot Rod, "I do it for my comfort, not theirs".

JMO

Steve

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chuck shaw · February 2003

I know I didnt say this

But I do prefer to use plates. I just don't understand why they are a "must". The point I was trying to make, was the design is very important. If plates are used, or plates are not used, doesn't matter, if the design is flawed, the system won't work.

If I recall the first post correctly, he said he could not get above 65*F. When using the Wirsbo ADS, that is the default design temperature. If it was designed properly, was the design followed on installation? Did the design call for two loops or one? Is there a way to figure (in theroy) what the Detla T would be if there were two loops, each 1/2 the length?

Chuck

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Jackchips · February 2003

Not to be picky

Joel, but I thought the purpose of radiant was for comfort?

JTel · February 2003

I am using 3/8" PEX style tubing. I will probabally try the
heat emmision plates.

John Abbott · February 2003

Plates

> would that code read, Joel? "Radiant Floor heat

> shall only be installed with heat transfer

> plates"

>

> What about a small bath or kitchen

> floor in Rhode Island with a load of 12- 15 BTUs

> / sq. ft. load.

>

> Certainly attainable without

> plates at reasonable supply

> temperatures.

>

> Would it be like the soup nazi

> "No radiant for YOU, next"

>

> hot rod

John Abbott · February 2003

Plates?

I have been installing radiant since long before it was accepted by the mainstream.When I started you couldn't even buy it from a plumbing & heating supply house. I had to have it shipped in UPS from Earthstar Energy systems in Waldoboro Maine
Staple up with out plates will work if you can supply enough heat to overcome the losses.Plates will work at a lower temp and this is desirable,however not everyone drives a Mercedes because not everyone can afford one or percieves it to be a good value.Radiant heat is like that,if we can supply effective comfortable radiant heat at a reasonable cost I think every one is a winner.Staple up without plates can and does work in proper applications and I have many homes in our -20 temps that are warm and cozy with it.
If cost was not a consideration I certainly would install plates on every job but I l live in the real world installing real radiant heat making real people comfortable for a price they can afford to pay.
Staple up without plates is not always appropriate ,but as Hot Rod said you don't always need plates.
We do not do a service to our industry by making fully functional and affordable radiant unafordable to a large number of homeowners by overcomplicating a reatively simple concept.
You must do the cauculations and apply your methods accordingly but there are many ways of achieving the comfort of radiant heat.

John

kevin_5 · February 2003

My house works great without 'em

I have a small home (Nebraska,we know COLD), staple up with no plates for upstairs (all tile and carpet), and radiant ceiling with double groove plates in the basement. My comfort level is equal to anything I have seen. I have a Delta T of about 5 degrees, and unfortunately I run the whole thing off of a small gas water heater. (38,000 BTU Input)
If money had been no object, I would have an HS Tarm wood/propane boiler and extruded plates throughout. But then I'd have gypcrete and eliminate the staple up anyway. Say that's it, while we're writing the code, let's eliminate staple up altogether. Lower water temps, quicker response time, if the people can't afford it, too bad. Let's also make them have outdoor reset and continuous circulation. And they don't need a choice of heatsource either. After all, we all know that some boilers are better and more efficient than others. And radiant ceiling isn't quite as nice a retrofit in a basement as radiant floor. Let's tell 'em it's quik-trak or nothing!
You know, this "Soup Nazi Radiant Engineering" is a great idea Hot Rod! Kevin

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Dave Yates (PAH) · February 2003

Saving Private Radiant

I'm currently striving to salvage a nasty ugly fubar'd radiant job that's a suspended tube - no plates mess.

My Wirsbo 5.0 design program indicated a water temp of almost 500 degrees F was needed in two of the rooms!!! Plates and a bit of insulation (as little as R-11) would have saved this from the invasive surgery now required.

In virtually every room in this house, plates would have saved operation $$$$ and reduced the temps down to accomodate the hardwood flooring. But cheap won the day. It's only cheap on the install side though & the HO's would have gladly spend the difference - IF ONLY SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE TIME TO EXPLAIN WHY. Hells bells, all they wanted was the radiant comfort they'd read was so wonderful. Now they've got a million dollar addition that struggles to reach 55 F on a near-design day.

Those who can't be bothered to get edumacated about proper installations would do well to keep their hands in their pockets instead of picking up that first tool.

Ask yourself what your job really boils down to. Just putting in a radiant system or are you charged with designing one that delivers the promise AND performing at peak levels while conserving the most energy.

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hot_rod · February 2003

I'd like very much to see

that design that requires 500 degree in suspended but could be "fixed" by merely using plates

It sounds like you are trying to tell us that the plates will magically "create" 400 and some odd btus from the aluminum? What am I missing here??

The construction and insulation values, as well as useage, dictate the heat loss and gains, largely.

Couldn't in fact, a home in Georgia require more BTUs per square foot than the same square footage home in Minnesota? The loss and gains would be driven by the construction and R-values, wouldn't they?

I think we need to realize, and most here do, that proper design, installation are always the key to heat system installation.

hot rod

chuck shaw · February 2003

seems to me

that both the design and installation were flawed on the job you are talking about. Had, whoever did the inital install taken the time to do a proper design, or have one done for him, most likley he would have arrived at the same numbers you did. Its not that I disagree with using plates, as I said that is always my first choice. However I do disagree with blanket statements. Such as "you must always use plates" or "plates should be code". Every job, in every home is different, that is why the companys who make the tubing try to train as many people as possible. That is also the reason they have made available the software to design a heating systme that will work.

In my opinion, this supports a need for a heating code of some sort (I am thinking about my home state of Massachusetts), where my grandmother could start a heating buisness tommrow, if she wanted to. She couldn't hook up any fuel, but she could install everything.

Chuck Shaw

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Pat · February 2003

Can't get above 65

Insulate the end of each joist bay. You will have a tremendous heat loss out each end. Rigid foil faced works well. Good Luck!

Unknown · February 2003

as for the whole plates arguement, HR and chuck have it exactly right. I swear by plates. Practically every single low mass job I do has plates and I push them as much as possible. That said, there *are* applications where staple up is adequate. It's not the most efficient, it's not the most responsive, and you have to be very careful. But it does work in some cases. Implying that it doesn't, or somehow it shouldn't be "code", is pure bunk. You basically have an underfloor baseboard system with some extra lag time to compensate for. That's wrong why? Shall we outlaw baseboard next then?

That said, in this case JTel it won't matter what you do unless you can address that 30 degree delta T... that is, unless you can be sure you are losing the heat on the way back from the heating zone instead of out of the ends of the joist or on the way to the heating zone. While you are in there, this is a small application, if you can find plates to fit your tubing go ahead and put them up, they can only help especially with the floor Rvalues and mass you are trying to drive heat through.

But *first and foremost*, do a heat loss calculation to make sure that anything you do will actually get the radiant to keep up.

hot_rod · February 2003

Loop pattern designs

were done for him by a major manufacturer. I have yet to see the lay out, but the GC thinks he can get me that info.

But.... garbage in = garbage out. The manufacturer was never on the site and can only design to what they're given on paper.

All of the subtle and not so subtle knowledge regarding application for taking what's on a one dimension print to our multi-dimensional world is why you're worth hiring. I'll bet the tubing is where the manufacturer's designer indicated it should be installed. But, there's much more than just tubing that makes or breaks a great system's performance.

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heatboy · February 2003

It's good enough.

That phrase drives me nuts. And that is exactly what suspended tube and staple up is. Everyone here knows that extruded plates, I use Radiant Engineering's, are the ideal solution for joist bay heating. Does it cost substantially more? Sure does. Does it out perform everything else? Sure does. I have, do and will continue to talk people out of "radiant" if the cost of plates puts the project out of reach. I could sell plateless crap all day every day, but I need to sleep well at night. There is nothing wrong with a quality baseboard or forced air system.

hb

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Unknown · February 2003

lol.. come on man. Radiant isn't just for rich people. If it delivers the heat it needs to deliver, the owners will still be more comfortable with a joist heating application plateless than with forced hot air, end of story.

*as I said before* I use plates *almost* exclusively. But once in awhile, in a situation where plates are not necessary, it's the difference between landing the job or not when the homeowner isn't concerned with HIGH performance and just wants performance.

There are plateless joist applications installed every day that work fine. Could they be more efficient, faster responding, more robust? Sure. Is the payback necessarily there on EVERY job? No. Especially not in lower heatloss spaces.

heatboy · February 2003

I never said.........

it was just for wealthy people. I have seen way too many plateless jobs in the homes owned by wealthy individuals that could buy me a hundred times. Why do I see them? Simply because they don't work very well, if at all. They bought into the manufacturers, Internet hucksters or incompetent contractor's hyperbole that everyone can have radiant at close to the same price as forced air.

We, as contractors, have all of this technology available to us, but you actually have to work to educate your client as to why they should invest the monies needed. It's easier just to cheapen the job and sell it on price, I guess. I don't care to part of that mentality. Radiant snob? Maybe I am. My clients happen to like the fact that they are getting someone who won't compromise the integrity and long term performance of their system just so they can "afford" it.

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Unknown · February 2003

You did imply that people installing these systems were cheating their customers though, and that's not always the case. At the very least you're adding fuel to the "plateless applications should be against code" crowd and I'm sorry, that's severely misguided.

Is staple up installed a lot when plates should have been added? absolutely. In five years of design I have designed exactly two plateless staple up systems (mostly new england projects, out of a total of about 250 design jobs or so for reference). However, in those two cases plateless made sense. The heat loss wasn't there to justify spending an extra $3000 on plates. I'm working on a new jersey design right now, where most of the heatloss is under 15 BTUs/sq ft. Now I'd fight tooth and nail to get plates in even if there werent' some areas that required them (and there are, as there usually is on the projects I work on)... but if those areas also had low heatloss and sensible floor coverings, and the homeowner/builder put their foot down and said we are not paying that much for the extra performance, I should just walk away even knowing it will work just fine?

It's fine to stick to "cadillac" systems. But plateless applications run just as efficiently, if not more so, than baseboard and forced hot air when properly designed, and you still get enhanced comfort as it is still radiant. Don't want to install em? Fine! But don't crap on people who do. Not all of them are lowballers passing off a lesser system as a superior value. Some of them are just people bowing to a thing we call reality once in awhile, and it's important to make the distinction.

Steve Bergerson · February 2003

The best of both worlds...

I've done staple up, alum plates, and quick track. All three work fine if the design is done properly in the first place.

On one job, I used a suspended installation for most of the home, but installed heat emmission plates on all the outside walls were the heat loss was the greatest due to large windows. This worked out great, and the homeowner is in love with his system... :-)

John Abbott · February 2003

Kevin,

> I have a small home (Nebraska,we know COLD),

> staple up with no plates for upstairs (all tile

> and carpet), and radiant ceiling with double

> groove plates in the basement. My comfort level

> is equal to anything I have seen. I have a Delta

> T of about 5 degrees, and unfortunately I run the

> whole thing off of a small gas water heater.

> (38,000 BTU Input) If money had been no object,

> I would have an HS Tarm wood/propane boiler and

> extruded plates throughout. But then I'd have

> gypcrete and eliminate the staple up anyway. Say

> that's it, while we're writing the code, let's

> eliminate staple up altogether. Lower water

> temps, quicker response time, if the people can't

> afford it, too bad. Let's also make them have

> outdoor reset and continuous circulation. And

> they don't need a choice of heatsource either.

> After all, we all know that some boilers are

> better and more efficient than others. And

> radiant ceiling isn't quite as nice a retrofit in

> a basement as radiant floor. Let's tell 'em it's

> quik-trak or nothing! You know, this "Soup Nazi

> Radiant Engineering" is a great idea Hot Rod!

> Kevin

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 270&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_

John Abbott · February 2003

Kevin,

Very well said.

John

John Abbott · February 2003

Plates

are not always nescesary but perhaps always desirable I know that almost all radiant methods work well if properly appplied but in my world any way cost is a consideration for many people.Lower water temps are great but we are in the comfort business and if acustomer is warm an cozy at-20 does it realy matter what the water temp is ,within reason of course.

John

JTel · February 2003

back to the begining

Hello, remember me i'm the one who started this topic off. I submitted all of my room data to RTI over here in local Bellport. Without even crunching the numbers the design engineer is confident that emission plates will cure my problems. By the way my floor thickness is not as thick as I first thought. I just purchased the home so I was not familiar on the construction. Anyway the floor has 1-1/4" of plywood subfloor then thinset motar with ceramic floor tile on top (About 1-3/4" total thickness). Thanks for all of your input guys. I proabally jumped into this job too quickly and did not plan it properly, but thats no big deal it's my own home and I like to experiment with different methods of doing things. Maybe staple up without plates is more sutible in a different application. I have hardwod floors that I was gonna tackle after the ceramic tile floors. These wood floors are pretty thin in comparison and need really low supply temps. I think plates are not needed in this application. Thanks everyone for your help!

Staple-up radiant without heat emmision plates

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