CO research

Mark Hunt

researching lawsuits regarding CO.

Check out this story I found. I wonder how many more like this are out there?

http://tritown.gmnews.com/News/2001/1101/Front_Page/044.html

I'll keep looking.

Mark H



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Mark Hunt

This got my attention


Resources > Risk management and propane distribution > Propane litigation digest


Settlements and
judgements

Alabama
Connecticut
Georgia
Illinois
Iowa
Massachusetts
Missouri
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Texas


Defense
verdicts

California


Georgia

Maine
Michigan
Missouri

North Dakota
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
Texas



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Settlements and judgements
(Revised April 10, 2001)

Alabama

$12 million verdict against water heater manufacturer in carbon monoxide poisoning case. Plaintiff purchased a used water heater from a gas station and installed it in his mobile home without exhaust vent. Three individuals in the home suffered carbon monoxide poisoning, one fatality. Owner’s manual was no longer present with water heater. Plaintiffs alleged failure to vent was due to lack of instruction from missing owner’s manual. ANSI standard requires owner’s manual to be permanently fixed to water heater. The plaintiffs also alleged manufacturing defect in failing to include carbon monoxide sensor with automatic shutoff in water heater. Jury awarded $4 million for wrongful death claim, $5.5 million in compensatory damages for other plaintiffs, and $2.5 million in punitive damages. The Alabama Supreme Court reduced the $5.5 million award to $850,000 and affirmed the other awards.


Mark H

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[Deleted User]

makes one wonder

where are the city inspectors during all this..and what real qualifications do they have...or was this one of those ''pass the envelope'' jobs. I think i like my old house just fine...keep up the great work. (i'm refering to the article you had the link to, when i said is it an envelope job, NOT your job mark. i just wanted to clear that up for those who posted after me and the thread took on a different context). there used to be what we called drive by inspections around here till the FBI was finally able to stop it.

Unknown

Its more the case than not

for manufacturers to take the hit for stupidity on the part of others. That is why we got rules and regs gotta follow them codes no matter what and if it ain't safe shut it off.

Mark Hunt

Timmie


We installed a gas steam boiler recently that has 300k input. The code requires that a make up air vent be installed any time a 300k or better system is installed.

In this instance there is no way to get to the outside of the building so the inspector said to cut a louver into the mechanical room door and one in the door to the basement.

Now this would be alright except for the restaraunt on that level. They have huge exhaust hoods running all day while they prepare the deep fried chicken. The rest of the building has apartments in it.

I pointed this out to him and asked who would be responsible for any CO issues that may arise. He said I would.

What would you do if you were in my shoes here?

Mark H

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ScottMP

Mark

For the steam boiler I would FIND a way to bring in make up air. If you have to cut the concrete then tell the owner its what you have to do !

The story about the water heater gets my blood boiling, what a crock of #$%@.

If I buy a used car from you and kill some one with it do we sue GM because they did'nt tell me how to drive it ??? What are jurys thinking in this situation ?? What are judges thinking ??? This is the reason insurance is unaffordable for many people.

Judges should be throwing case's like this out the window.

Scott

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hot_rod

combustion air

Sounds like you've got a very real possibility for having negative draft with all of the exhaust equipment they're running. I'd install a spill switch (two actually) on the draft hood for starters and a blower to induce the CFM's required whenever the burner runs and tie in a kill switch through a sail switch.

Better yet - convert to HW and install two direct vent boilers with domestic via an indirect or two. ASSE 1017 valve at the tank's outlet serving human contact circuits & ASSE 1016 valves at the point of use protecting the customers/employees.

If they won't go for it? Have them sign off or walk away.

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Mark Hunt

Scott and Dave


This building is a three story brownstone with buildings attached on both sides. The mechanical room is in the front of the building and is roughly 3 feet under grade, meaning the top of the ceiling is still 3 feet underground.

I am going to let the inspector figure this one out.

Scott, I posted that water heater story so that we could all see just how easy it is to get sued for other peoples ignorance.

I have a bunch more coming.

Thanks for the input guys!!

Mark H



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Jackchips

Mark,

wasn't the restaurant required to have make-up air to compensate for the exhaust? Where are they taking the air from?

Mark Hunt

well......


as far as I can tell, they are getting it from the building. They also keep the door from the kitchen to the hall with the basement door open!

The building owner is going to have to address this issue as any modifications to the existing structure will undoubtedly have an impact in other areas.

My point to all of this is that here I clearly have a situation where the code, if followed to the letter, could actually cause a serious problem. How many contractors would have just cut the holes as prescribed and walked away?

Mark H

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Steamhead

Induced-draft steam boilers

do exist- the Burnham Independence series is available that way. But since the boiler is new, a power-vent setup might be the way to go, augmented by makeup-air blowers feeding the boiler room and safety switches on everything.

You really have a can of worms here. Good luck.

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Mark Hunt

Maybe now is



a good time to open up that bait and tackle shop!!

I do not have access to an exterior wall which is why the inspector said to cut louvers into the doors.

These old buildings do not always lend themselves to code compliance so easily.

Mark H



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Jim Davis

Don't you ask the question that haunts our industry. More often than not they require things that can't be accomplished or even work.

Unknown

What kind of chimney do you have?

Is there other equipment in the chimney?

If there is not any other equipment into the chimney then I would put an induced draft on the flue pipe to the chimney. That will require itself to be interlocked with the power to boiler. Or if possible put a power venter on the roof at the top of chimney creating a negative draft at all times in the chimney, this will also have to be interlocked.

I would then do a pressurization test on the building with all equipment running, determine what size make up air unit you require and put it upstairs to make up air in the restaurant. This should equalize the pressure allowing you to use the louvers in the doors. You may have to oversize the make up air system to get to equal pressure in the building. Try all this with the doors open and closed to get a feel for the difference that is created.


Warning the fire inspector may require fusible links on those louvered doors. That is so in the event of fire they will melt and slam shut giving you a fire door rating.

Just one more thing I have noticed with louvered doors at the top of stairs the air tends to draft up the stairs not down so using that for air for combustion may be tough.

I would really search around for a way to get air into that basement before spending the big bucks all this will require.

Jim Davis

Excellent observations Mark. Somehow the only combustion air that is brought into that room better be with a fan. Whether you can run a pipe up through the floor or if you have to go out the door and up the stairs with a pipe, the stronger the fan the smaller the pipe. Any gravity combustion air would be useless.

John R. Hall

Thank Mark

Your contributions are helping me wrap up my presentation I'm making to an IAQ group next week. Unfortunately, the further I get into the topic of CO detection and prevention, the more confusing the issue really is. And it needn't be.

Steamhead

Years ago, I once saw

makeup air brought to a huge coal-converted steamer thru a duct to the boiler room in the center of an old church. Every time the oil burner started, a fan placed in the boiler room came on and pulled outside air thru the duct to feed the burner. I can't remember if this vintage setup had a sailswitch or other air-proving arrangement on it, or exactly what size the burner and duct were. But it made sure the air moved in the right direction!

Mark, you might be able to do something similar here.

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