What would you do? (PAH)

hot_rod

Or just enough of the truth? Ethics 101.

Job goes south between the builder & homeowner - personality clash. We're still in good with both parties. Addition bump out installed a few weeks ago & Friday the sewer backs up. Our machine's cable becomes firmly bound up and can't be retrieved. Backhoe digs up yard this morning & we find orangeburg piping has collapsed - right under the weight of the new addition's footer!

The owner will want to know what happened. So, do we simply show them a section of the bituminous fiber piping and explain it collapsed and leave it at that? Or do we reveal the builder (not intentionally, I should add) inadvertantly caused this by placing the footer over the piping? If we point to the builder, there'll be another very ugly confrontation & it's been something of a war zone on this site as it is.

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Paul Rohrs

Pray brother.....



Rock - Dave - Hard Place

Punting is not an option I take it?

From what I have seen of your honesty and integrity, trust your gut and speak to each party individually and know a solution can be reached.

Wish it were easier for you.

PR

KevMcG

Forgive my ignorance

I have never heard of orangeberg pipe
Was the pipe new with the addition?

hot_rod

paper, rock, scissors

Orangeberg is essentially cardboard-like paper impregnated with pitch and wound up in layers like a rolled newspaper. Hardly what you would refer to as suitable by today's standards, but fairly common on old septic systems in our area. Nope, this was here long before the addition & it's doubtful the builder was aware of it being so close to the footer.

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KevMcG

well then

The pipe has seen better days its old and yes the work on the addition may have contributed to it but it's still an old inferior product.
I don't think you could hold the GC liable for it. I am sure he had a good reason for putting the footings in.
I have had examples of a carpenter doing work in a house and from him banging nails or what ever the vibration causes a fine thread brass pipe to break. I honestly couldn't hold him finical responsible for it.
The less said the better I guess since in society today every wants to pawn of responsibility and not listen to reason.

YEah I know the repair of the sewer is alot more than fixing some fine thread pipe

Jackchips

Haven't heard

orangeburg for a long time. Only question I would have as the HO would be was it below the excavation for the footing and not noticed.
The solution and agreements between parties will show were integrity starts and the finger pointing starts. We all know where your from Dave, we'll see about the other two parties.
Good luck.

ed wallace

pipe problems

the less said the better its old pipe probably would have cavedin in the near future. Leave it at that no reason to be caught between waring partys

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Jackchips

That doesn't

sound like Dave's modus operandi. My guess is he will talk to the GC before speaking to the owner and then speaking the truth, whole truth and _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .

Bob Bona_4

we

get 'em, don't we?

The pipe had collapsed, is as far as I would go. Why did it collapse? I'm not sure, but let's get it fixed/replaced with something a little sturdier, since some of the pipe will now be under your new addition. Peace of mind.

The next issue is, who pays? The builder or the homeowner? When it comes down to it, it is the homeowners pipe. Hopefully he is an understanding sort..

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Bill_14

Gotta be totally honest...

that is the only option. I think you have to let the GC know what you found and give him a chance to "step up" and make things right with you for your expenses, as well as the owner.

You are in the middle regardless. However, your next conversation has to be with the owner to tell him the repairs are going to be repaired by the GC (by you) or you have to tell him how much the estimate of cost for your work so far is and what the other repair costs would be.

At that point, both parties have been told the truth and both parties are given a chance to make sure you are paid in full.

In my opinion, Orangeburg is a deficient excuse for an underground piping material and it will eventually collapse or be ruined by tree roots. This is a great excuse to offer the owner a chance to replace the piping with cast iron or Schedule 40 PVC pipe.

Bill

Heatermon

More like Ethics 2003

In this day and age, I would NEVER begin a "Remodel" without preparing the homeowner for the many "surprises" that WILL pop up during the process. Also, we NEVER start a remodel before assesing the undergound plumbing and reporting the condition to both the homeowner and G.C. (It's alot easier to replace the lines before the slab is poured). We will usually camera and record the main sewer line to have "evidence" in case something like you described happens. With that being said, in your present situation, I would: 1. Show the homeowner the crushed pipe and explain to them how the new pipe is bettter and won't end up looking like this piece. 2. Offer to replace the rest of the line or make sure they realize it will happen again in other areas of the system and will eventually need to be replaced. 3. Share the pertainent information with your G.C., without being judgemental, and let him come to his own conclusion why it happened. (He should get your "drift" and will be more carefull next time). Most of the G.C.'s I work with would say "Man, what garbage they used to be able to get away with using in the old days. It's a good thing we found it now, rather than after we were done and out of here. Do you see anything else that could cause us problems?" Chaulk this up to experience and go on with your business. I don't see a need here to "add fuel to the fire" that already burns. I hope you get through the rest of the remodel without getting "burned".

Heatermon

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Duncan_4

Or better still (maybe)

> sound like Dave's modus operandi. My guess is he

> will talk to the GC before speaking to the owner

> and then speaking the truth, whole truth and _ _

> _ _ _ _ _ _ .

Duncan_4

Or better still (maybe)

> sound like Dave's modus operandi. My guess is he

> will talk to the GC before speaking to the owner

> and then speaking the truth, whole truth and _ _

> _ _ _ _ _ _ .

Earthfire

moving footer

If the footer sank enough to crush the pipe in a couple of weeks there is a big problem lurking in the ground . Or did the backhoe operator crush it while digging the hole and not see it. Any way its a good time for the home owner to get rid of that orangeburg junk and get some real pipe installed with some nice fine sand bedding to protect the pipe from ground shifts. Or maybe did the rooter head tearup that orangeburg from the inside? If that junk is in the ground we won't put a cable in it, even saw a jetter punch thru it once. I'd stick to the bare facts: Pipe is old deteriorated and collapsed , lets replace it with better material and forestall future headaches, and as my stepdaughter reminds me constantly "S_ _ T Happens", its construction.

hot_rod

Seems odd

that a new footing could settle enough to collapse the pipe. Did the footing just cross over a short section or did it run the length of the pipe.

In either case the footing shouldn't settle down even a couple inches, if it did this "movement may be noticed in other places in the building, Could be the ground psi bearing strength wasn't up to the weight of the addition, or the footings were not sized correctly for the load?

I wonder that the force from the backhoe bucket, during the excavating, close to the pipe, caused the collapse, unknowingly?

I too would meet with the gc and point out your thoughts, see what he offers. Getting rid of the ornageburg will be a good idea, regardless. Did you have to replace the entire line?

hot rod

Lowell Thiesen

It has been my experience that orangeberg will collapse over a period of time from just the weight of the ground. In my area we would be required by building code to change the section under the addition to cast iron or sch 40 plastic pipe anyway.

KCA_2

I've always found

that the truth is always the right answer. The question is who do you tell. Well... who hired you! If the HO then tell them. If the GC, then him. Here locally, we have to use a CI or PVC, ABS under footer. Nothing else is allowed however I could understand were one might not know what is under ground and inadvertently (sp) leave it.

:-) Kca