Efficiency/ combustion tuning/ Mr davis

Dan Law

Mr. Davis,

Partial, misleading or double speak answers do not help your cause. To the extent you give this type answer, you defeat your purpose, which I take to be general industry acceptance of your tuning methods. All the effort you put into your research, collapses in such conversations. As
you say, you don't make up the laws of physics, only adhere to them. A clear explanation will make your case. If it’s clear and proves true, acceptance is easy, nearly automatic. Your current approach generates doubt, and therefore non acceptance. Examples from just this brief
discourse on the wall:

“STEADY STATE EFFICIENCY doesn't exist.”

“Thermal efficiency is calculated by Temp. Rise X CFM X 1.08.”

“Furnace BTU's is the amount of the fuel BTU's that is being transferred to the air stream. Thermal
efficiency is the measured delivery BTU's an appliance delivers”

With a fixed design CFM on most furnaces the temperature rise on all furnaces needs to be consistent(the same) to accomplish proper heat transfer and efficiency.”

“All equipment Heat exchangers are the same typical design and require the same air flow based on each type of efficiency. Therefore the same Temperature Rise would be required on all makes of equal efficiency furnaces”

“How do you measure CFM?”

“AFUE does not evaluate actual equipment performance in any manner.”

“That the current venting tables say you cannot use them if you have wind in your area”

“Have you ever clocked a meter?”

“Anyone can fake numbers “

“Contractors are the ultimate liability”

“Efficiencies are used as bait to get contractors to buy equipment”

“Yes we do ruffle a few feathers and poop in a few diapers”

“Like I don't know after 25 years the obstacles one must face to create change”

“Do not know what your occupation might be, but your experience(not knowledge) in this field looks like zero.”

“There are zero requirements in the codes to safety check equipment”

“I have my eye on Hollywood!”

“This is the only industry you don't have to have any field experience to be an expert”

“Code approved venting, combustion air and manufacturers recommendations were responsible for the majority of problems”

Come on Jim! If your serious about your science and goals, you gotta know this is counterproductive. If your wondering why there is no change taking place, my first suggestion would be to check the mirror. Many a good idea has gone unaccepted for lack of proper presentation. To borrow another quote from you:

“What is the explanation?”

Temptrol

Mark Hunt

How about


you tell everyone your real name!!

Temptrol? Are you really a person?

Jim Davis posted his name and e-mail address, you however chose to duck and run.

Tell me why I should ever believe a word you say when you do not have the confidence to post your real name?

You wanna' play with the EAGLES YOU BETTER LEARN HOW TO FLY PAL!!!!!!

I am tired of the hide and seek stuff!

Tell me what you know! Tell me what your background is!

Until you bring your credentials, you are just a troller with 0 knowledge or experience!

Been there, seen that!

Attention homeowners!! The last post was made by an imposter.

Nothing better to do than troll.

Mark H

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ScottMP

Mark

I have a great deal of respect for your passion for this subject. I believe this is the purest form of the wall, a subject that has been lurking in the shadows and one that we as heating proffesional need to address.

That being said, I believe "Mr. Temptrol" makes a valid point.

Mr. Davis has intrigued many of us. We are like fish nibbling the hook and if he dos'nt jerk it and hook us we'll swim away.

" How do you dilute the flame temperature with excess air on a designed peice of equipment ?"

I think its a valid question

" How would this be done on a boiler ? "

NO ONE is attacking anyone here, but this is a forum for discussion and thats a two way street. I am very interested in the answer and will probably take M. Davis's class.

Scott Milne

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Dan Law

Mark,

Eagle? You sound more like an albatross. Assuming you actually read my post, what on earth could you
be so flamed about? Perhaps this "fire first, check for results afterward" is the same approach you take
to troubleshooting or incorporating new information into your repetuare. Those of us with REAL
EXPERIENCE, have seen a lot of crapola come down the pike in our years, and have learned to accept
the facts, not the flash. If in fact Jim has a better method of tuning gas appliances, it should not be a
secret that somehow only he has had the insight to uncover. Not likely. Shrouding the "discovery" in
doublespeak, and avoiding direct questions serves only to cast more doubt on his claims. My post is
intended (and I think quite clearly communicates) an effort to have Mr. Davis use this industry forum to
do what he claims to desire - to generate change in our industry & utilize his procedures to better
manufacture and service gas fired appliances. If that is in fact his goal, why all the “hide and seek” as
you say. I have doubts on your experience. The same insight that TIME IN THE FIELD has given me,
and others (who have managed to express their thoughts here calmly) tells me to beware of run and gun
folks as your post indicates your disposition to be. So far as homeowners go - I think anyone
(homeowner or industrial user) can read these various posts and draw their own conclusions as to who
they’d listen to. I’ll stand by mine - you’ll have to live with yours.

To answer your questions:

30 years FIELD experience - industrial, commercial, institutional, and yes residential.
Service Technician then Service Manager, then Contractor
Burner service to 40,000,000 Btuh - both oil, gas, and waste gas
Direct fired MUA to 100,000 cfm
Hydronic, low pressure and high pressure steam from industrial process to residential one pipe.
Refrigeration from 1/4 hp sandwich cases to 400 ton chillers including reciprocating, centrifugal, screws,
scrolls, absorption (gas fired and steam) supermarket refrigeration (multiplex and single circuit),
Pneumatic and digital controls (not just seen them - installing, design, and servicing contractor / dealer)
Authorized service and start up for: (Htg Products) Raypak, Weil Mclain, Rapid MUA, Lochinvar,
Patterson Kelly, Larrs, Bryan, McQuay, Burnham.

State Licensed contractor classifications:
Mechanical Hydronic Htg Ductwork
Hydronic cooling Refrigeration installation
Process piping Refrigeration Service (unlimited)
HVAC Equipment Heating Service (unlimited)

Boiler Low pressure systems of unlimited capacity or firing rate
High Pressure Systems to 300,000 lb. / hr

Plumbing Master’s License

Electrical Master’s License

Union shop, Union payroll, 31 employees, dominant Service Market share.

Impostor - I don’t think so. Yourself??? Come on Mark, time to leave the nest. When you call someone
out, make sure you bring more than a pea shooter. But then, that’s a function of experience.

Dan Law
temptrol@traverse.net

Dan Law

How about it? No sweat.

Mark,

Eagle? You sound more like an albatross. Assuming you actually read my post, what on earth could you be so flamed about? Perhaps this "fire first, check for results afterward" is the same approach you take to troubleshooting or incorporating new information into your repetuare. Those of us with REAL EXPERIENCE, have seen a lot of crapola come down the pike in our years, and have learned to accept the facts, not the flash. If in fact Jim has a better method of tuning gas appliances, it should not be a secret that somehow only he has had the insight to uncover. Not likely. Shrouding the "discovery" in doublespeak, and avoiding direct questions serves only to cast more doubt on his claims. My post is intended (and I think quite clearly communicates) an effort to have Mr. Davis use this industry forum to do what he claims to desire - to generate change in our industry & utilize his procedures to better
manufacture and service gas fired appliances. If that is in fact his goal, why all the “hide and seek” as you say. I have doubts on your experience. The same insight that TIME IN THE FIELD has given me, and others (who have managed to express their thoughts here calmly) tells me to beware of run and gun folks as your post indicates your disposition to be. So far as homeowners go - I think anyone(homeowner or industrial user) can read these various posts and draw their own conclusions as to who they’d listen to. I’ll stand by mine - you’ll have to live with yours.

To answer your questions:

30 years FIELD experience - industrial, commercial, institutional, and yes residential.

Service Technician then Service Manager, then Contractor

Burner service to 40,000,000 Btuh - both oil, gas, and waste gas

Direct fired MUA to 100,000 cfm

Hydronic, low pressure and high pressure steam from industrial process to residential one pipe.

Refrigeration from 1/4 hp sandwich cases to 400 ton chillers including reciprocating, centrifugal, screws, scrolls, absorption (gas fired and steam) supermarket refrigeration (multiplex and single circuit)

Pneumatic and digital controls (not just seen them - installing, design, and servicing contractor / dealer)

Authorized service and start up for: (Htg Products) Raypak, Weil Mclain, Rapid MUA, Lochinvar, Patterson Kelly, Larrs, Bryan, McQuay, Burnham.

State Licensed contractor classifications:
Mechanical:
Hydronic Htg, Ductwork, Hydronic cooling, Process piping, Refrigeration equip installation, Refrigeration Service (unlimited), HVAC Equipment, Heating Service (unlimited)

Boiler - Low pressure systems (unlimited firing rate)

- High Pressure Systems to 300,000 lb. / hr

Besides these personal licensures, my company also holds Master Plumbing and Master Electrical licences.

Union shop, Union payroll, 31 employees, dominant Service Market share.

Impostor - I don’t think so. Yourself??? Come on Mark, time to leave the nest. When you call someone out, make sure you bring more than a pea shooter. But then, that’s a function of experience.

Dan Law
temptrol@traverse.net

Jim Davis

No not fish in the water, more like puppets on a string and I carry a pair of scissors. National Comfort Institute puts on Seminars on Carbon Monoxide and Combustion Efficiency. Everyone thinks that we should give all our information for free. If I was rich I would, plus I have a wife that likes to shop. I do like to present topics for discussion which hopefully create constructive interaction. In the end only those that actually care will come to class and challenge and learn the information we have collected(not invented). Those that don't will remain dumbfounded by their computer screens.

Unknown

Well then, please

Make availlable here the location, the cost, and the way to sign up for this seminar.

I'm sure some of us in the trade would like to attend.

Noel

ScottMP

Well Mr Davis

It seems the only one pulling my string is you.

This board is populated by a group of caring concerned tradesman who are interested in sharing information.

Your answer tells me you interested in only advertising your classes.

I asked a question to try and learn. I stated I was interested in taking your class. I did not ask to be insulted !

I don't think one question would give away your years of knowledge. On the contrary ,I THOUGHT it would prove your expertice.

I thought wrong.

Scott



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Jim Davis

Don't understand double speak? Facts are facts, but I don't have 2 hours on this site to explain the data behind each one of them. Whats more important is it has got your attention and now will you take your vast experience and find out if it is true or false. No one to date has proven one thing that has been said or taught to be untrue, unsafe, inefficient or cause more wear and tear on equipment. After tens of thousands of field adjustments shouldn't something have shown up if it was wrong?? With the sue mentality in society today, the courts should be full of cases where this information has caused problems. I would have trouble living with myself if I ever found that I have diclosed information that was not correct and could cause harm.

James Day

Mettle

I know Jim Davis very well, he is not rich nor does he have a large company with many employees, what he does have is a great compassion for the truth and the for the HVACR industry. He generously contributes his knowledge to further the integrity of our profession. Anyone responding to Jim's character in the negative should look up the word hypocrite!

Until you fully understand Jim’s viewpoint and knowledge, please stop maligning him.

Eric Taylor_3

Tens of Thousands?

So what you are saying is that there are tens of thousands of systems running today that you and your students have adjusted to operate in direct violation of manufacturer's specs and state code? You better hope nothing happens buddy or you will living in a very small room with a VERY friendly roomate.

James Day

Eric Taylor



An inept remark.

Eric Taylor_3

Which?

The small room part or the roomate part? I believe the rest is pretty "ept".

Steve Ebels

Friends, Romans Countrymen..........(SE)

Lend me your ear. Just for a minute or two.

Bashing each other is not what the Wall is about now is it? This place was started to promote the free exchange of information so that can all learn from each other. I myself have gained a wealth of knowledge here from people who just flat out responded here, e-mailed me and even called me up to discuss a problem I had posted about. I would not be the "Hydronician" I am today without this place and the interchange of knowledge and experience that goes on here.

That being said let's keep it civil and speak to each other in respect even if we disagree. As it says in the Good Book, "Speak the truth in love".

As for some who claim to have some esoteric knowledge, that's fine. State your opinion and leave it at that. If someone is interested, I'm sure they can contact you personally.

Thanks

James Day

Which or all below (Eric Taylor)

inept
adj.

1. Not apt or fitting; inappropriate.
2. Displaying a lack of judgment, sense, or reason.

Definition: improper
Synonyms: absurd, ill-timed, inappropriate, inapt, infelicitous, malapropos, meaningless, not adapted, pointless, ridiculous, undue, unfit, unseasonable, unseemly, unsuitable

Unknown

Gentlemen we are losing sight

of the importance of exchanging ideas and information. I find myself worried when we let personal feeling enter in to good healthy debate. Jim Davis and I have very high respect for one another. I do not want to lose him or his company as posting friends on this sight. The bible teaches us to come and reason together. I want to learn from National Comfort Institute because a lot of what they say makes sense to me. I also know of Jim's passion for safety and proper operation of equipment. None of us have all the answers, I guess right now my problem is I am not sure what the question was. Lets all go to a seminar when it is in our area. I have offered them the use of my training center. I spoke with someone a while back from their marketing department. Hey I am not stupid if I offer them the center then maybe I can sit in for free.

I remember when I first started out getting interested in this boiler stuff (1957). U.S. Navy, I was a radarman, had a friend who was a machinist mate. I used to hang out in the boiler room (600 lb steam systems)when I was not on watch (they had the best coffee on the ship) they also made some other stuff we will not talk about. I was the only non bilge rat on the ship who ever qualified on evaporators for making water. I was made an honorary member of the forward engine room crew. I thirst for knowledge and if you do not keep an open mind you will never learn. Let us agree to disagree but part as friends.

Dan Law

Re: profesional exchanges

Well said Tim. As in most things, folks who excel at their craft are inherently passionate about it. It's easy to get our hackles up, rarely beneficial. On to bigger and better issues.

Dan

Glen

It was a wicked circle ...

as I reread some of the text books I have kicking around the office. Some talk about combustion efficiency, some thermal efficiency and some heat efficiency - while I was hoping to find a reasonable explanation of this to put the claims of Mr Davis in some sort of logical context - it would seem that the revolutionary teachings would need to be divulged - gratis - here on the Wall. And that doesn't make much business sense to me - so on one hand I understand Mr Davis's reluctance to come clean - that's just dollars and cents. Like Tim McElwain and others I thirst for knowledge and come here to the Wall to drink up my fair share.
But here's my observations, tempered by 30 years in the field: heat exchangers are limited by design in their ability to absorb/transfer heat, burners by design are limited in their ability to properly mix gas/air, burners by design are limited as to their output temperature by the amount of excess air available, dirty heat exchangers insulate equipment and prevent effective heat transfer, the lack of visible carbon doesn't eliminate the possiblity that the flame is "dirty" and coating the heat exchanger - the list goes on. At best we deal with average equipment almost 95% of the time.
Every piece of gas fired equipment manufactured is a comprimise based on the above variables, installation altitude, calorific value of the gas available, local safety codes and any number of other factors which demand attention. Only one piece of gas fired equipment can send my combustion analyser to 99.9% combustion efficiency - and that is a Viessmann VSB boiler on a cold startup!
I can also bet (almost with 100% certainty) that not one burner/heat exchanger design is engineered to handle stoichiometric combustion with a flame temp of 5000 deg F. Most - for safety sake - can handle the much lower temperatures of 2500 - 3500 deg F. Our business is built on any number of comprimises, eg. for cost of manufacturing, safety, ease of installation, selling price to the customer, etc - the list is long.
Knowing all this with some certainty, and reading the postings of Mr. Davis just raises my eyebrows (more than a little) when claims are made that suggest superlative performance can be achieved from average equipment without comprimising safety.
There must be a way whereby the curoiusities of all on the Wall can be sated without harming his business interests. After all this - we just gotta know!

John Cockerill

Information transfer.

Sharing on this site will not cost any one a dime. Your business is your relationships, trust and good knowledgable service. If you spend time kicking stuff around you will filter the good ideas from the bad. Me. I need to share my thoughts to gain the conviction of my learning

Jim Davis

Do not know when I insulted you, if so not my intention. I do present information that does cause controversy and thought, but more than this investigation in the field. If on would read AGA Report FT-C-07-93 which is a study by their engineer with our students about the validity of using barometrics in lieu of factory draft hoods. Part of the validation of the test is that all equipment had to be installed according to manufacturers recommendations and code. The report states barometrics made all equipment tested in the field safer. 19 out of 19 pieces.
Excess air is the amount of oxygen passing over the flame not used for combustion but instead cooling the flame. A perfect gas flame can reach 3600 degrees at 0% Oxygen. Normal Oxygen of proper operating equipment is 6-9% with some exceptions that run lower and are superior pieces of equipment. At 6-9% 0% the actual flame temperature before 1 BTU is transferred is 2200-2800 degrees. This also means that at these temperatures the delivered BTU value of gas is not 1000 BTU per cu. ft. Or in real field operation the most BTU that can be created from 100 cu.ft. of gas is 90,000 to 95,000 not 100,000. The negative pressure of the chimney controls the oxygen in all appliances, so whether it is outside conditions, building pressures, length of pipe etc., every installation has different characteristics. The question is should we monitor these things and control them on each job? I will list this site at other locations but www.nciinstitute.com is where our training is listed, and an additional talk site.

Jim Davis

I am still pretty sure this is the land of the free and home of the brave, not not the muzzled and weak. When something is dangerous and wrong does it matter what authortity it is, it must be changed.

Jim Davis

Try to answer a simple question and wow do I get nailed. But if everyone else can handle it, I have no problem. To see so many posts, even though some might be off color, is great, besides the object is to learn and create challenges. I doubt that any of my answer won't be challenged, but in the end I really want people to investigate the possiblilities.

John Ruhnke1

The perfect flame for best efficiency

I took Jim's class. I asked alot of questions. Jim, I appologize if I slowed you down any with all those questions. Here is what I got out of the class. The AFUE is nothing but a bunch of misinformation. The effiency calculated by your combustion anylizers is dead wrong! It means nothing. It is based on the misinformation that came from the AFUE. The secret of success is to burn the perfect flame. The equipment is most efficient the closer you get to the perfect flame. Jim has figured how to achieve the best flame possible with each piece of equipment. Jim teaches you how to get the best possible flame. He is able to do this because he has charted all the differant possibilities with combustion anylizer equipment. Jim wrote all of this info in his books. Jim teaches you how to use info in his books to achieve the best flame possible. Energy Auditers would follow up on Jims work with a degree day test. They would confirm how much money Jim saved his clients. The Energy Auditors were hired by his clients and not Jim.

The reason the manufacters are so far behind Jim is the invention of the modern day test equipment, mainly the combustion anylizer. The modern test equipment has only been out for around 10 years. The AFUE was developed useing equipment that is hugely out dated. The equipment 50 years ago is nothing like the equipment of today. These engineers memorize ancient out dated information to label efficiency of equipment. Bad info in means bad info out.

John Ruhnke

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Unknown

Jim , I tried going to the site

nciinstitute.com - it told me there is no site . Can you repost the right one ? I'm definitely intrigued by your testing . Have you done the same with oil fired equuipment ?

John Ruhnke1

www.nationalinstitute.com

www.nationalinstitute.com

JR

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Jim Davis

Sorry, www.nationalinstitute.com was the old one, the new one www.ncinstitute.com-one less i. Yes, I have done quite a bit on oil, both residential and commercial, including CO diagnostics for oil that can even tell you if the spray pattern of a nozzle is defective.

GW

keep on trucking Jim!

You da man!

Gary

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Steve Ebels

Stochiometric combustion

Or as near to it as you can attain is but one side of the coin. The other things that come into play are........

A. How much of that perfect combustion can the heat exchanger on a given piece of equipment absorb. this would be called..... hmmmm, Heat exchanger efficiency?

B. Assuming the flame is 100% efficient combustionwise and the heat exchanger can absorb and tranfer 90% of that heat and tranfer it to the distribution medium. (be that air or water) Then it would be safe to say that we have a 90% efficient piece of equipment.

C. The final facet would be how efficient is the system at moving the heat out to where it is needed. This number combined with the % of the first two would be system efficiency.........I would think. Here is where you realize a huge difference between hydronic heat and forced air. Example, I have a 4,480 sq ft home being heated with one (1) 007 running at at tick under 7/10ths of an amp as opposed to the origional proposed scheme of 2 air scorchers drawing about 6-8 amps apiece. Quite a difference.

These rambling thoughts are not taken from any books, just my tired brain.

Do any of them make any sense?