Need Oil Burner Advice

John Abbott · February 2003

you cannot troubleshoot without proper equipment and readings.However I have found the General filters more prone to plugging than other brands ,you need to use your gauges but the General filter would be suspect in my experience.

Anthony D. · February 2003

Oil burner problems

Installed an oil furnace over the summer. The existing installation included two pipe oil system feeding a water heater and furnace in parallel. The oil tank is inground and slightly higher than the burners, so the burners are gravity fed. Recently the furnace started to lock-out. When I arrived I noticed the water heater oil pump was whining and upon start-up caused the furnace burner to fail. I figured that maybe the oil line was clogged, so I blew it out with Co2, but no change. So I converted both burners to one pipe, by removing the bypass plugs and taking the return line out of service. Both burners sounded and ran great. (Thought I had it) Three days later the furnace failed again! I hooked up a nozzle line gage and found no pressure, yet the water heater would run (both appliances are side by side). I purged the bleed valve at the pump, and checked cut-off and found not holding so I changed the pump. Three days later it locked out again, this time I tried to use the return line as an independent supply for the water heater, but could not get oil flow (it must not go below oil level) I was thinking about a tiger loop, but am concerned if I had a problem as a two pipe that I would experience the same problem as before converting to a one pipe.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

Anthony D.

John@Reliable · February 2003

Anthony,Sounds like you might have

a bad oil supply line here. Are you getting air out of pump when priming? I use a clear hose into a 1 gal. jug this way you can see air. Careful with co2 on lines, most older installs had a foot valve in tank! Tigerloop might be a bandaid until better weather,but I would dig that line up and replace asap. P.S. most oil leaks are on lines and not the tank and more on returns that supply. Hope this helps.John@Reliable

Billy Joe · February 2003

Little more info

would be helpful.What size are the oil lines?Is this setup new or old ?Has it ran ok before and has this problem just started?What type fuel pumps are these Suntec,Webster?9 times out of 10 there is nothing wrong with your fuel pump,changing that should be the last thing you do.You either have restriction in line(see filter,improper line sizes,kinks,etc ..)or you have leaks (see air in line).You must connect your gauges to the pumps on both suction and discharge ports of pump and this will tell you everything you need to know?Isolate each burner run to see what problem is and do not use return line as new supply line ,it terminates higher up in oil tank.

Joe Grosso · February 2003

anthony

Frist thing did you put a vac gauge on the fuel line when the burners are running.Frist just run one unit and see what the vac is,then turn both on and see what it goes up to.Also what size fuel line are we talking about and how far of a run are we talking about.Email me with your number if you want to talkk some more about this problem.

Tom M. · February 2003

separate lines

Are there two separate lines and filters from the tank or is there a tee between the furnace and water heater? You could be building a higher vacuum when both units run at the same time. I agree with the previous post that a Tigerloop may be a good temporary fix.

Anthony D. · February 2003

Billy
the oil lines are 3/8" and the tank is about 40ft from the appliances. The fuel pump is a single stage suntec, on a beckett burner. I am using a Standard General Filter, with the both appliances tee'd in after the one filter.

Anthony D. · February 2003

Joe,
I didnt put a vac gauge on it. The oil lines are 3/8" and the tank is about 40ft from the appliances. The fuel pump is a single stage suntec, on a beckett burner. I am using a Standard General Filter, with the both appliances tee'd in after the one filter.

Anthony D. · February 2003

No there is only 1 common filter General 1A25. I am using a Standard General Filter, with the both appliances tee'd in after the one filter. The oil lines are 3/8" and the tank is about 40ft from the appliances. The fuel pump is a single stage suntec, on a beckett burner.

Anthony D. · February 2003

I was thinking that there was a restriction in one of the lines, so I blew it out with CO2 but had no resistance. Plus there was no difference after blowing lines. I'm concerned that if I put in a tiger loop that I will have a flow problem, since the tiger loop will allow the same flow through the supply line (Is my thinking right?)

Joe Grosso · February 2003

Anthony

Frist you MUST have the proper equitment to figure out what is wrong with each job.Get yourself a set of vac and pressure gauges for this work.Sids sell a nice set of vac bolts that you can install right into any brand filter.If you do not know what the vac is on the job you cannot resolve the problem.Lets find out what is wrong frist.Also I hope you installed flare fittings everywhere on the fuel lines.Also having a onwatch system can help you find out what is going on in the system.Give us some readings on the system and we can take it from there.

[Deleted User] · February 2003

I assume you

stuck the tank and changed the filter cartridge. I also assume that the furnace burner is higher than the water heater burner. If not, the reverse would probably be happening.

40' of 3/8" oil lines w/ a 1A25 is too much for 2 burners connected 2 pipe. Think TSGC. Probably only worked because the weight of the oil in the tank helped the syphon. Head pressure can help offset high vacuum. But, do like Joe says, use your vacuum gage.

Used to see this quite often on tract homes. Always in cold weather, when the deliveries got strung out. Yep. Didn't have that head pressure to help. A quick delivery normally solved the problem. Other things that worked were: check valves on each burner suction line, adequately sized filter, and make sure all oil line connections are REALLY tight.

Can't say about "A or B" pumps, but once found a job where high vacuum was opening shaft seal on an unnamed fuel unit, and doing just what you describe. No. Did not leak oil or air after we squared away the vacuum problem.

Good luck.

Bob Bona_4 · February 2003

ditto

inground tank gravity fed? I can't picture this. You must be pulling oil out of the top of the tank somehow= vaccum. You need to check the vac with one unit, and with both units on.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Roger_3 · February 2003

Vaccum

Its all about vaccum with both pumps on take a reading at the suction of each pump 6" is the max for a single stage pump on a one line system. When your vac goes over 10" you start to pull the air out of the oil use a Sid Harvey oil watcher or make one it is a clear plastic hose and a vac gauge mounted on a tee to watch the vac. Get out the paperwork from suntec all the inf you need is included with the new unit.

Roger Litman · February 2003

Oil burner site

Go to oil burner tech talk and ask there.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Jim_13 · February 2003

The Filter

Each burner gets a separate filter independent of the other. Problem will now be gone. It's taking a few days for the two burners sucking through the same straw to affect one another. Make each one work independently of each other.

Anthony D. · February 2003

Update

I went back and put an oil watcher on the supply line, to check vacuum and to see air. With the one pipe set-up there was no vacuum with one or both appliances running. I slowly closed down the valve in the supply line (mainly to check to see if the vacuum gage worked) and I noticed air bubbles at around 6". I then connected the watcher directly to the supply valve and still saw bubbles (not as bad), so I converted the furnace back to a two pipe and checked again. Now there was vacuum (6")and found lots of foaming, but when I bypassed the filter, it was much better - (2-3" vacuum)but still some bubbles. I replaced the 1A25 canister with a 2A (larger) canister filter and no foaming with 4" vacuum. Still getting some bubbles, so I guess the only thing left is to replace the lines.

I appreciate all the help from everyone, any other comments are welcomed.

Thank you

chris smith · February 2003

one other idea

up here in maine its been so cold for so long weve had some viscosity related issue's ie the frost is very deep, have not had a problem with underground oil tanks yet but most of my stuff is comercial and much deeper, if you gravity feed to the basement your only 6" deep

chris smith

paradise porter maine

Jim Davis · February 2003

Oil lines/two pipe

You have two problems, but don't replace your lines.
Two pipe systems usually require a minimum 1/2" line. When both pumps are running you are pulling 36-50 GPH, which the line won't carry so you will get cavitation and foaming. Also with this configuration, when one pump is running it can suck the oil completely out of the unused pump, unless check valves are between both of them and that doesn't always work. Convert system to one line system with a check valve between the filter and tank. If lifting is a problem switch to 2-stage pumps on both burners. Have seen this installation dozens of times and it is almost impossible to stop the problem if two lines are used. Years ago talking to the head engineer for Suntec and Webster Pump companies, they both stated that 2-line system were self-destructive. every oil headache call I was asked out on, that was the first thing that had to go.

Bob Bona_4 · February 2003

that

probaly isn't the best advice. Check valves have no place on a properly sized and installed oil system, absolutely none. What purpose would a check valve even have on a one pipe system-hold oil at a point in the line like a straw? I don't think so.

If the vacuum reading is high with one or more pumps on, and all other conditions are right (no compression fittings/kinks/leaks), then the Tiger Loop is the fix. Optimumly, the lines could be changed to a larger size, but the 2 line setup is still trouble. Even with a larger line, I would Loop it just to get rid of the return to the tank and drastically reduce the flow of oil.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Dan Law · February 2003

Before replacing the lines..

> I went back and put an oil watcher on the supply

> line, to check vacuum and to see air. With the

> one pipe set-up there was no vacuum with one or

> both appliances running. I slowly closed down

> the valve in the supply line (mainly to check to

> see if the vacuum gage worked) and I noticed air

> bubbles at around 6". I then connected the

> watcher directly to the supply valve and still

> saw bubbles (not as bad), so I converted the

> furnace back to a two pipe and checked again.

> Now there was vacuum (6")and found lots of

> foaming, but when I bypassed the filter, it was

> much better - (2-3" vacuum)but still some

> bubbles. I replaced the 1A25 canister with a 2A

> (larger) canister filter and no foaming with 4"

> vacuum. Still getting some bubbles, so I guess

> the only thing left is to replace the lines.

>

> I

> appreciate all the help from everyone, any other

> comments are welcomed.

>

> Thank you

Dan Law · February 2003

Before replacing the lines....

This comes under the heading of due diligence. Any splices in the lines, particularily the supply? Compresion unions maybe? Good gaskets on the filter canister(s)? I'm suspecious of a vacumm leak. Off cycle allows air into line. Next run cycle, the pump trys to "purge" the air (creating foam & whine), or burner locks out. Both units running = more volume atempted = more air enters. Go back and tighten up any connections and joints. Watch for split nuts as you do.

Jim Davis · February 2003

Worked for a wholesaler for 16 years that repaired oil pumps. One summer I was investgation the formation of air in the oil lines. On our test bench the oil lines might have been 4'. Each time I ran the pump for ten minutes and small amount of microscopic air bubbles were released from the oil. Nothing seem to stop this. Any air in the system can cause loss of prime. Initial installation of oil filters can cause loss of prime unless you out-gas the cartridge(not bleed the canister or soak the filter). A good brass oil check valve always prevented that one stupid call-back. Shouldn't need it but just can't avoid it with a buried tank. Its like using a hollow nozzle on oil when you know it doesn't match the air pattern of any burner ever made, but it is all you have.

Anthony D. · February 2003

Hey Bob,
Never installed a tiger loop. Do you need multiple tiger loops with multiple burners? Also where does the oil filter go, and should there be one oil filter or should there be two seperate filters for a furnace and water heater?

Anthony D. · February 2003

I replaced all the piping and connections from the point the lines come out of the cement floor. Also put new valves and oil filter.

Tom M. · February 2003

Tigerloop

They have very informative instructions with them. I suggest bringing them home and reading them before going on the job. I know you can use multiple tigerloops for higher flow rates but I don't know if you can run multiple units. Very important: filter and firomatic before the tigerloop. No valves or filters in the loop. OSV between filter and tigerloop if tigerloop is lower than the top of the tank. Hope this helps.

EDDIE GRIERSON_2 · February 2003

tigerloops

One Tigerloop per burner. One pipe feed from tank to empty cannister (sludge pot) then to high capacity mesh filter (General) and then a low micron filter (Garber). Install tee and feeds to tigerloops.

Dan Law · February 2003

And the results?

Bob Bona_4 · February 2003

just

had this discussion over at Oil Tech Talk. For years I have been putting 2 residential burners -typically 2.25 GPH combined and under- on 1 Loop with not an iota of a problem. Exceeding the flow of the Loop or using 1 Loop per burner was discusssed, and other guys stated the same..you will be fine doing this with your typical .75-1.00 GPH water heater and say, 1.25 GPH furnace.

Try to use the larger General- the 2A710 before the Loop to protect it. T off for the two burners after the Loop. You won't believe the drop in vacuum and the cleanliness of the filter the next year.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

LARRY JONES · February 2003

HAVE YOU TRIED A CHECK VALVE IN EACH LINE
SO ONE PUMP CAN NOT PULL OIL FROM THE OTHER

Steve Eayrs · February 2003

check valves can help.....

The fuel pumps builtin fuel cutoff (works kind of like a check valve, doesn't it?), seems to be the first thing to go, and is not to be trusted, if the pump is not new.

How about the tigerloop combi's, which have a filter on the bottom of the tigerloop, w/ one on each burner, used instead of the regular tigerloops?
Steve

jay_3 · February 2003

anthony

it seems as though you hav e a capacity problem when both burners are runninig. i've had oil dealers in our area with the same problem. we fixed the problem by simply putting a
"priority" relay on the water heater. when the aquastat on the water heater "calls" it energizes the burner and a n.c
relay at the same time. the n.c. contacts of the relay open
the thermostat circuit to the furnace not allowing it to come on until the water heater is satisfied. you normally
experience any space temp. drop since the waterheaters recover quickly. installation should take about 30 min.

let me know what you think.

jay.

TED_3 · February 2003

finding and fixing permanently the problem

I wouldn't install a tiger loop in system because they dont fix the problem entirely. This is only a band-aid on a problem. What if air problem worsens and tiger loop cant handle all the added air? You mentioned it was a gravity fed system. If this is true then when both units are not running you would probably have an oil leak somewhere.You said you made system into only one line, if this is correct than your pump would be air bound when you restarted the unit. Take the nozzle line off at the gun assembly connection and point it into a bucket and reset unit after it went off on safety. If oil comes out in a clean stream then your problem isn't an air issue.If you put on a new fuel pump on the furnace it should be strong if not stronger possibly than the hot water heater pump. I would believe that the hot water heater pump would get air bound also and go off on safety. I pull out tiger loops all the time and either repair or run new oil lines. Remember tiger loops arent cheap and usually only last 6 months to a couple of years depending on how much sludge makes it passed the oil filter.

Steve Eayrs · February 2003

If you have sludge making it past the oil filter.........

than the tiger loop is not your problem.
We put tigerloops on almost all out system, and I don't see them as a bandade, but a self-priming fuel system. Have installed hundreds of them, over ten years or so, and maybe replaced a 1/2 dozen at the most.
I agree that their could be another problem here, that should be found and fixed, but if you have sludge making it past the filter, then I would assume that the burner would shut down and not run, regardless if you have a tigerloop or not.

Steve

John G. Merritt · February 2003

Had the same problem recently

Anthony,

Had the same problem a short time ago. Found that one burner stole oil from the other. One was the house heater, the other was a water heater. I changed the line size to 1/2" then installed a Steveco Fan center, using that for a lead-lag control. It worked.
Line size is important. I'll get that control number as soon as I shovel my way to my Van. Got 9" of snow last night. John

John G. Merritt · February 2003

Lead-Lag on units

Anthony:
The control I used for a lead-lag is a Steveco Fan center #90-113, Plus using 1/2" line on Oil lines.
Tie 2 black leads together. Tie whites. Normally closed red to furnace, normally open (Brown) to water heater. On a call for heat the normally open closes and closed opens.
When TT is satisfied, normally closed has power again. It's cheap and easy lead-lag system.

John

Scott M · February 2003

Oil problem

Anthony,
The first bit of advise I would give you is lose that Co2 gun and get a hand pump.Co2 guns create way to much pressure and will pop a hole in a 20+ year oil line before you can say the word lawsuit.If you cant push or pull it with a hand pump the lines junk.From your low Vac. reading and visible air in the line I fear this may be the case.I would replace oil lines ASAP.
Good luck

Need Oil Burner Advice

Comments

Categories