First or second floor laundry rooms

Mark Hunt

Are you aware of any code that requires a builder or architect to consider the appliances that will be installed in a home?

Have you ever seen a spec sheet from a manufacturer that lists a MAXIMUM amount of depressurization for their appliance?

Do you know of any code that requires a contractor or a utility to test depressurization?

Not many contractors consider these things apparently.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

It used to be


that laundry rooms were located in basements. Now it is quite common to see them located on the first or second floors of new homes.

With all of the discussions going on here lately about combustion and CO testing, I was wondering if any one here has considered what effect a clothes dryer located on a main living area would have on the atmospheric appliances they install in a basement?

Or how about a gas log in the new fireplace? Could the clothes dryer effect the way it vents?

How many contractors here consider this when making equipment decisions?

Mark H

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J.C.A.

Mark,

Remember Timmies Christmas post wher the gas log fireplace and stove were the worst CO offenders ? My guess is that the dryer on the upper will just further multiply the problem , pulling air from the easiest point .

Good observation ! Who would "normally" think of such things ? Then again...why be normal ?

Online Sheriff \"Murph\"

Mark hunt.......

If that is your real name. I take you feel this is a bad thing, I do not see how it could be any worse considering the pressures at the top of house would be higher and most people keep their equipment in the basement. of course all situations are different, but i see it as the lower pressures in basement would be fighting each other for make up air ,compared to the upper floors already trying to get rid of the stack-effect anyhow!!

I do not know where you are gone with this(do you want second floor laundries written out of code)but it would be a very tuff thing for me to get my wife to give up the second floor laundry thing, just does not make sense!!

Besides ,In this day and age nobody wants to do laundry in the garage!! Hmmmmmm, and as far as the fireplace goes, the homes need to be de-pressurized a little better than just cutting o hole into the wall and saying "there ya go" cause that ain't right, shame on you ,you should know all this by now (ever hear of a door curtin)didja??

And if we are talkin boiler here, where do you propose we get the combustion air ,TELL ME THAT !!!


Murph' (SOS)

Mark Hunt

Murph


If that's YOUR real name! I told you that all those years of testin' CO with your nose were gonna' catch up to you and now sadly it has.

So you are saying that chimneys are good for air exchanges?

Mark H

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eleft_4

My wife said

It's convenient on the floor where the bed rooms are!

al

Mark Hunt

Seeing a lot


of that.

I'm curious if any one has considered what that can do to the pressures in the home.

Good to see you posting sir!!!

Mark H

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Unknown

Just recently

set up a dryer with an interlock to room fan to equalize pressure in the dedicatd laundry room on the second floor. You can not get the dryer to run until the fan is on(fan is bringing fresh air into the room). A lot of people do not figure the dryer into the air for combustion mix. It can remove 15% of the air in a room when running. Also it should not vent near any indoor air openings. I encourage people to locate washers and dryers away from heating equipment and room air. Washers with all the bleaches and detergents contaminate the air in the area causing damage to furnaces, boilers and water heaters.

All decorative fireplace inserts and unventd heaters should be outlawed. They are dangerous no matter how they are installed.

As for fireplaces all of them should be required to have a make up air system running when they are in use.

I could go on about all my ideas as to how to make sure the air quality in your living space is safe and adequate for all equipment operation.

Heres one for you, a business with 30 computers in one area, people getting headaches and sick. Toxic fumes given off by computers no air change in the room. The return air duct was picking up fumes and blowing them into heating system. Result high levels of CO due to poor duct sealing.

Candles if made with parafin or perfumes are toxic. You should only use candles made with beeswax.

I have thousands of these. It ain't just the gas and oil equipment we have to worry about.

Wethead7

Upper level laundry

Yes but the dryer will be less likely to deposit lint and other stuff into other fuel burning appilances. That could be a good thing.

But lately we have found Homes with mutiple laundries. The problem here more than dryer operating at a time. Talk about negative pressure. And Quickly. Each unit pushing out
over one hundred CFM.

Mike

Mark Hunt

Excellent!!

> set up a dryer with an interlock to room fan to

> equalize pressure in the dedicatd laundry room on

> the second floor. You can not get the dryer to

> run until the fan is on(fan is bringing fresh air

> into the room). A lot of people do not figure the

> dryer into the air for combustion mix. It can

> remove 15% of the air in a room when running.

> Also it should not vent near any indoor air

> openings. I encourage people to locate washers

> and dryers away from heating equipment and room

> air. Washers with all the bleaches and detergents

> contaminate the air in the area causing damage to

> furnaces, boilers and water heaters.

>

> All

> decorative fireplace inserts and unventd heaters

> should be outlawed. They are dangerous no matter

> how they are installed.

>

> As for fireplaces all

> of them should be required to have a make up air

> system running when they are in use.

>

> I could

> go on about all my ideas as to how to make sure

> the air quality in your living space is safe and

> adequate for all equipment operation.

>

> Heres

> one for you, a business with 30 computers in one

> area, people getting headaches and sick. Toxic

> fumes given off by computers no air change in the

> room. The return air duct was picking up fumes

> and blowing them into heating system. Result high

> levels of CO due to poor duct sealing.

>

> Candles

> if made with parafin or perfumes are toxic. You

> should only use candles made with beeswax.

>

> I

> have thousands of these. It ain't just the gas

> and oil equipment we have to worry about.





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Mark Hunt

Excellent!!


I was going to mention duct sealing next Timmie, you beat me to it.

"Vent free" stuff should be outlawed, I agree.

I am curious though, you mention make up are for fireplaces and I agree with that, but how do you determine the amount of air required? I mean, if there is a dryer on the main living floor and it happens to be running while there is a fire going, will it be able to overcome the pressure drop that the dryer creates?

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Have you


measured the pressures in the house to see how negative it goes with the driers venting?

Have you seen any effect on atmospheric vented equipment or fireplaces?

Mark H

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Unknown

My Son's new home

is going to be used for some experiementing in some of these areas.

As far as fireplaces go it is a double problem, fireplace running with a roaring fire, creates a very high draft, lots of heat going up the chimney, most of them are for ambience not heating. This will create a very strong negative pressure in the house. So much so that I have had cases that due to negative pressure causing a reverse chimney in the basement (fireplace on first floor) that the pilots on water heater and boiler go out.

Solution is too isolate the regular heating and water heating equipment during fireplace operation. Down side on that is if someone leaves the door to the boiler room open you have problems all over again. In one instance (an employees home) we put in a continous operating air exchange system into the boiler area.

My experience with the dryer running with fireplace going was in a series of condominums that all had probles with air for combustion. So much so that all the equipment was eventually change over to direct vent. We ran several tests with fireplace running and found that the draft created by the fireplace was great enough that fans running in the house (kitchen, bathroom, dryer) was not sufficent to overcome the draft being created in the fireplace. Worst time is when the fireplace is first started, it is a good idea to open a window or door when you first start up until the chimney heats up. These same condos with no fireplace running and the same fans running affected the gas equipment, the gas equipment could not create a strong enough draft to overcome exhausting caused by fans and dryers.

Dryers I have tested the fans run anywhere between 150 cfm up to 350 cfm. Those are residential only. Want to have some fun try to figure out air requirements for a commercial laundromat with gas or oil heating equipment. They all have to be interlocked with air intake and exhaust system. Restaurants are a lot of fun also (did that for nine years) I owned an operated a restaurant service company for gas equipment.

I would say that the dryer like any exhaust system has to be figured into the mix when setting up a house.

Very interesting many times on consultations on jobs with constant pilot outage or other seeming unsolvable problems I find the major cause is poor combustion caused by some kind of air problem (pressurization or lack thereof) most technicans tend to miss this they get caught up in the gas, electrical or mechanical side and miss what to me is most obvious. These are things we cover in our Fundamentals of Gas seminar. Most techs say to me I do not need that course I am liscensed and have been installing gas equipment for years. Everyone needs that course, my frustration is that I only get them for eight hours. When we taught this at the gas company we spent an entire week on it. That was just in our helper training program, much more time was spent on waht we simly called "Combustion".

Unknown

Interesting you should ask...

the architect for a recent project I was asked to consult on mentioned to me that he was setting up for testing to be done on air changes per hour on the new building. I asked him what the reason was and he mentioned a code that requires testing to be done to determine air change and the effect of exhausting air from the building. Part of what he was considering and working into his specifications was the amount and types of equipment. He did not quote the exact code to me. My personnel experience with architects in the past is that some have forgotten to include mechanical rooms in the plans for buildings.

It would probably be difficult for manufacturers to simulate every contingency for pressure problems they would encounter. Most testing that is done is done in ideal conditions. We all have to deal with "real world" stuff which they did not take into consideration. I have never seen anything in writing about pressurization relative to equipment, at least not any specs.

The National Fuel Gas Code has had for years a recommended equipment test to be done on equipment. It is in the appendices which are listed as not actually part of the code. It is in the new 2002 code located in Annex H page 54-147 and 54-148 Titled Recommended Procedure for Safety Inspection of an Existing Applince Installation. Other than that I do not know of any specs, there may be I am just not aware of any.

Louie

Venting? What about water?

After being a employee of the local water authority and
hearing over the radio that I,m called to a address to shut
the water off at the curb box because the neighbor called
in saying that there was water coming out of the basement
windows I would never have a first or second floor laundry!
With over 300,000 customers I have heard that call more
than once.
The people will have gone away for three days or more and
one of the supply hoses lets go, the water is running down
to the basement where the sump pump finally quits from
continuous use and you have a indoor swimming pool!
Even if you catch it early you will have damaged plaster
and flooring. We tell the customers that if your laundry
is located anywhere other than the basement use the steel
braided supply hoses to the washer.
When my wife asked me to move everything upstairs I explained to her what might happen I talked her out of
it. I did this for two reasons:
1)I really didn't feel like doing it even though we had
the room.(you have got to have some time to fish)
2)Going up and down the basement stairs all the time isn't
a bad thing for my wifes backside either!

Lou

Sven

water problem ?use the floodsaver

It is a special pan just for this purpose. I see they make one for water heaters now.

http://www.floodsaver.com

Mark Hunt

Thanks Lou!!!!!


Now there's an angle I did not expect!!

You just brought a whole new twist to this conversation!!

I love "out side the box" thinking!!!!

GREAT POST!!!!

Mark H

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Bob_5

Why not use a condensing dryer ....

Lot's of European and Pac Rim dryers are condensing units requiring no venting. Add in a FL washer with a spin cpapbility of 1400rpm+ and you have an enourmously efficient washer/dryer setup. There are even COMBOS that BOTH wash and dry. LG, Equator, Miele and others.

Bob

Lee_3

Automatic shot off valve

This product has only lets wwater run while washer is on. Comes with sensor to detect burst pipe and shut off water.

http://www.watts-intelliflow.com/