Towel Heater?

wflather

Currently in the starting stages of a bathroom remodel. We have planned for a wall-mount, hot water towel warmer. The heating sub has recommended against it and suggests substituting an electric heater instead. They claim to have installed them and had clients be unsatisfied.

Anyone else have any feedback on these?

hot_rod

nothing

but satisfied clients here. You want one? You should have one. Warm toes, warm towels = happy clients.

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hot_rod

Consider

an electric towel warmer. Myson and others make great looking ones. Perhaps the challange of getting a hw zone to the bath wall concerns him.

Like Dave said, don't take no for an answer.

hot rod

ta finnegan

Find out more.

Usually when a client is unsatisfied there is a problem with the installation or the initial design.

These units are terrific. Ask him what he has specifically against them.

Just "No" "ain't" good enough.

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George Peteya

It's all about the controls

Honest, I just walked up to the Wall with the intention of asking what the best (!) way is to control his-and-hers towel warmers (Runtal TW12s) at each end of the platform tub, and the thread's already begun. The TW12s are acting as supplemental heat (concurrent, not second stage) for a radiant floor. Questions:

1. What's a good operating water temperature? 120F? Rest of the job is outdoor reset, at least two injection loops. One will top out at 155F, the other maybe 130. But I don't think the Owners will wait for cold weather to get warm towels. A thermostatic mixing valve to give them 120 all the time?

2. What if they want heated towels when it's 95 out and the a/c is chilling every room surface including the towels? Has anyone dealt with that?

3. The fact that the towel warmers are supplemental heaters is what's making this complicated. I'd probably recommend electric otherwise.

Can anyone help me out? C'mon, tomorrow's my birthday.

Steve Paul

Don't use hydronics

We have had a lot of luck using a towel warmer hooked up to the showers hot water supply. Run the warmer in series with and before the hot water connects to the shower.
1- it only operates when the shower is running.
2- it warms the towel while you are in the shower.
3- the pipe is going to get hot anyway so utilize it.
4- requires no controls or electricity

hot_rod

Or use

the DHW recirc line if you have one. Make sure the brand of towel bar is rated for DHW and pressure.

Here is one I built using stainless steel. It is in the DHW loop. I have also built them with copper and had them powder coated.

The DHW recirc pump has a timer that shuts it down fro midnight to 6 am the conserve energy. It could be shut down mid day if the owners schedule allows, also.

hot rod

wflather

Thanks

Thanks for the suggestions and comments, keep them coming. I like the warmer in series with the shower supply.

There is going to be radiant floor heat here also. I had sort of been wondering if this was any issue. The supply to the floor will have to be tempered so that it isn't too hot. I have no such concerns for the towel warmer, would the tempering device more likely be installed closer to the furnace in the basement or at the other end, near the bathroom? Would hot water satisfactory for floor heat be warm enough for the towel warmer?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Towel Warmers

I believe they got their start in the UK or thereabouts where it's perpetually cool and damp.

Also believe they're often hooked up to what we would call a "range boiler", a hot water coil inside an always-on insulated cast iron stove. Works great for that climate but across the Atlantic where warm weather predominates?

The WORST (but very common) way to hook it up is in series with the shower. Unless they take a REALLY long shower and the hot supply is WAY too hot, the towels won't get warm and fluffy like they're supposed to be.

Connected to a hydronic system, you face the worst conceivable "micro-load" possible in the warmer months--or none at all unless the whole system is on.

You can build a "mini" hydronic system just for the towel warmer. Lots of complexity, lots of work, lots of potential problems. Myson used to recommend a small electric hot water heater for this purpose, but there were so many, such rapid tank failures that they no longer recommend this--at least they no longer recommend any specific heater.

To make matters worse with ANY hydronic system, these are often installed on outside walls and we all know what kind of problem this can be in a really cold snap!

Many are rated for potable water use and you {can} connect it to the DHW system. (This is how I did mine.) It will even work on a gravity circulation system--at least mine does. Since this is the highest, farthest element of the recirculation system, that fact may be contributing. Since I also wanted to be able to turn it off during the dog days (when a COLD towel would be nice) I had to install a bypass across the warmer so the loop would still circulate. Fortunately, the water seems to favor the warmer--not the bypass--when the warmer is on. Problem with this though is the potential for Legionella (slight but real).

Moral to this: Unless you ALREADY have a 24-7-365 source of heated SPACE HEATING fluid, give HIGHEST CONSIDERATION to the electric models!

One last thought: While you should NEVER consider a towel warmer as an element of the heating system proper, some of the larger models have serious output. TRY to control the space with such a warmer with its own t-stat!

wflather

DHW or Electric...

Darn it anyway. Come looking for a simple answer.......
You make good points. Haven't discussed creating a DHW loop for instant HW and including the towel warmer in the loop.
I had thought that the in series with shower would work because of my current habit: draping my towel over the existing floor-standing CI radiator, turning the bath rm thermostat up. By the time I am done showering (10 min or less) the towel is warm. Towel warmer would require smaller volume of water from furnace (currently set to 180).

gotta go.

> I believe they got their start in the UK or

> thereabouts where it's perpetually cool and

> damp.

>

> Also believe they're often hooked up to

> what we would call a "range boiler", a hot water

> coil inside an always-on insulated cast iron

> stove. Works great for that climate but across

> the Atlantic where warm weather

> predominates?

>

> The WORST (but very common) way

> to hook it up is in series with the shower.

> Unless they take a REALLY long shower and the hot

> supply is WAY too hot, the towels won't get warm

> and fluffy like they're supposed to

> be.

>

> Connected to a hydronic system, you face

> the worst conceivable "micro-load" possible in

> the warmer months--or none at all unless the

> whole system is on.

>

> You can build a "mini"

> hydronic system just for the towel warmer. Lots

> of complexity, lots of work, lots of potential

> problems. Myson used to recommend a small

> electric hot water heater for this purpose, but

> there were so many, such rapid tank failures that

> they no longer recommend this--at least they no

> longer recommend any specific heater.

>

> To make

> matters worse with ANY hydronic system, these are

> often installed on outside walls and we all know

> what kind of problem this can be in a really cold

> snap!

>

> Many are rated for potable water use and

> you {can} connect it to the DHW system. (This is

> how I did mine.) It will even work on a gravity

> circulation system--at least mine does. Since

> this is the highest, farthest element of the

> recirculation system, that fact may be

> contributing. Since I also wanted to be able to

> turn it off during the dog days (when a COLD

> towel would be nice) I had to install a bypass

> across the warmer so the loop would still

> circulate. Fortunately, the water seems to favor

> the warmer--not the bypass--when the warmer is

> on. Problem with this though is the potential

> for Legionella (slight but real).

>

> Moral to

> this: Unless you ALREADY have a 24-7-365 source

> of heated SPACE HEATING fluid, give HIGHEST

> CONSIDERATION to the electric models!

wflather

Make me one?

HotRod, I like the rack you have created. If I am unable to find a fabricator locally, could you make me one?

hot_rod

More towel bar ideas

Here are a few others I built. The large ladder type is welded square and round tubing, powder coated.

The small shelf type is 1/2" copper with ThermoFin transfer plates siliconed onto the copper tube. The transfer plates really increase the towel to heat area! Painted flat white.

The dog is cast concrete with CSST tubing wound inside.

All of these are on the same zone with 110 degree supply from a, dare I say, CombiCor.

For a very simple do it yourself, order some Watts Radiant "Base Branch CustomCut Manifolds". They come in 48" lengths (16 branches) Cut the length you want and make the "rungs" with 1/2" copper or brass. It could be made with a couple rear outlets or use a couple 1X1/2" copper 90's for the connections. Polish or paint, or have it powder coated.

I'd be glad to fab any type or size of any configuration. Non UL listed, of course.

While I like the DHW shower supply idea, it may take a loooong shower to warm big bath towel. Towels are pretty insulative, unless you use steel wool towels

The ThermoFin style would be best for quick recovery on the DHW hot supply to the shower!

hot rod

wflather

Watts Manifold

Is image Mvc-014s.jpg the Watts Custom Cut Manifold material?

hot_rod

Another manifold

Watts Radiant part # 205250 gets you a 1" brass trunk, 48" long, with 16- 1/2" ports. You can also order it with these nice flush brass caps installed.

This is a pic of the same manifold with Dahl mini ball valves. I add the connection of my choice based on tube brand and size.

A "true" wethead would build a towel bar with the ball valves to balance flow through the rungs,of course

hot rod

wflather

Ahh yes

I am sure my wife would just love that.....

Roger Litman

Towel heater

I installed a flat plate electric towel heater as I wanted it to heat the towel in the summer as well as the winter and it is O.K.BTW the floor is radiantly heated both summer and winter controlled by a floor imbeded aquastat. With a shower based system it will take too long to heat up the towel and a separate circuit looked like overkill. The best way I ever heated towels was by suspending one(rolled into a cylinder) over a hair dryer so that the hot air went through through the open cylinder(closed at the top).I have heard of people buying warming drawers to keep their towels warm, but they take up a lot of space. I tried a heater (electric) that was a serpentine coil with piping about 8 inches apart and the towel got hot only where it touched the piping.BTW the better the towel, the harder it is to heat.

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Luke Lefever

I especially like the radiant coat rack doggie!! Thanks, I needed that, laughed my butt off this morning.

hot_rod

Run the supply to the towel

warmers first, then down to thre radiant floor. I supply mine with 100- 115 degree temperature. I run the towel and bathroom floors year 'round. A simple setpoint control with the sensor below the tile floor in the bathroon controls this zone. I run 85 degree in the winter and roll back to 79-80 or so in the summer. This, I found, (80)is just enough to take the chill the tile in the summer months.

This could be a "micro load" on a boiler in the summer, and cause short inefficient cycling. (Another good reason for a buffer tank) Mine runs off the coil in my Combi Cor which runs year 'round for DHW so the small micro load really doesn't effect the hw tank that much.

I still think electric may be your best choice, unless you are firing your boiler all year (tankless coil) anyways.

I'd be curious to see how the series DHW hot supply works. In theory it sounds do-able. Just depends on the surface area of the warmer and the weight of the towel. A 15 minute shower probably would not warm a thick bath towel, perhaps.

Hate to see you waste energy (hot water) in the shower just to warm a towel!! Unless the DHW is all solar generated.

hot rod