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I have seen the enemy & it ain't just us (PAH)
hot_rod
Member Posts: 23,186
The chain of ignorance, poor advice and non-existant communication spelled doom for two radiant systems that otherwise should have been outstanding contributors for delivering the promise. Showcase homes with non-functioning radiant systems. Even in this mild weather (mid 30's), niether could reach 70 indoors. Last week, one struggled to maintain 54 F!
Being both a detective and an advisor for resolution runs the full spectrum of emotions. Part of that detective work involved uncovering who the players were in this debacle. My heart sank when I discovered who had "advised" the mech contractor. From there, I was able to tell the GC who had been the inside guy doing the design. I should have recognized his handywork - I've seen it before & with the same results every time.
GC does excellent work, BTW. Top notch stuff & wants to stand behind his work - even if he's got to eat $$$$$ to make things right. That's a refreshing start. He got a real edumakation today! He did something today I've never ever seen a GC do. When the HO appeared on the scene, the GC told him point blank he was accepting full responsibility for the screwed up systems and then proceeded to repeat to the HO what I'd told the GC was wrong. No beating around the bush. No finger pointing. No weaseling. I like this guy already.
The mechanical contractor should move on to doing something else besides hydronics. I've seen plenty of slop before, but this has set a new low. Solder stalagtites galore & pig wallow neatness! But even he was the middle guy & relied upon others. He's washed his hands of the room-to-room problems and is walking away from any responsibility - let the buyer beware.
The supply house in question is one we will not do business with and have not for many years now. The salesman/designer is the same bozo that sold me my GlowCore & furnished me with a boat load of lousy radiant advice many years ago. Evidently he's not learned a thing since then and has steadfastly continued to mislead those who know no better. He should be locked up and the key thrown away. At the very least, there should be a disclaimer stating he's flubbed many a radiant design and let the buyer beware - at least then the mechanical guys would know to ask someone else.
DO YOUR OWN DESIGNS AND HEAT LOSES - THERE'S NO EXCUSE NOT TO PERFORM THIS WORK YOURSELF! (If you're reading this and you don't do your own heat loss/design work {mech contractors only} - go outside where no one can see you & kick yourself in the arse! If not, someone else will do it for you one day.)
There was evidently no communication between the supply house salesman/designer to the mech contractor regarding proper installation methods and consequently, none between the mech contractor and the GC or insulator. What insulation between floors? 2nd floor carpet and pad (the worst kind of pad for radiant) cause further problems too? GD ceiling is warmer than the radiant flooring!
The first house we can fix. The second one will require major changes & I'll need someone like Gary Hayden to help me with the upper floor (he's way smarter than me & I value his judgement). Personally, I don't believe the existing installation can be fixed and I'm 99% certain we'll need to attack this from another angle. Shives me the gits though & I almost can't bring myself to abandon radiant tubing under tile floors. Jumpin jehosephat, they did not even run the damn tubing into the large walk-in shower flooring or its massive seat with room for six. Then there's the ceramic tile deck big enough to hold an entire clan surrounding a huge whirlpool - along a glass wall - brrrrr - 54 degrees F under the deck and surrounding that fiberglaas boat. No heated towel bars either & the GC loved that idea - "No one told us about them".
Suspended tube systems. 55 to 70 degree F D-T's. L----o----n----g tubing runs. No outdoor reset or other type of control beyond a blind 3-way mix that ain't piped properly anyway. What's supposed to be a modulating Korean POS is wired to go balls to the wall so they could use standard stats on the multiple zones. Its DC communicating stat sits on a shelf adjacent - adjusted to max. Delivering 175 degree F water to hardwood flooring, which returns at 110 F! The absolute worst butchering job of P/S piping I've ever seen - clueless. A boiler was replaced today because they couldn't figure out how to fix the first one's 3-way valve! These are only a few weeks old!!!!!
Didn't need a second boiler anyway. They had no clue how to obtain two temp zones from a single temp source, so both are now oversized.
Time to begin redesigning and then an offer to put things right in rasdiantville.
But you know what? This could all could have been avoided with a smattering of training. Not for the supply house designer/salesman - hell I've seen him at places and courses (like the Tekmar school, which he should have taken eight years prior to my seeing him there) that should have chased the demons of disaster from his feeble mind, so I'm convinced he's beyond learning anything beyond pushing product. (Same dufus who instructed me that my GlowCore had to be matched to the footage of PEX tubing rather than the actrual heat loss of the structure - D'OH!) I'm talking about the GC's and mechanical contractors who blindly place their trust in others hands.
The GC gets to pay twice and the mech contractor loses a very large account. There's no sense to that & no feeling of victory for me other than resolving the homeowner's comfort issues and maybe, just maybe - restoring their faith in radiant heating.
<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=98&Step=30">To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"</A>
Being both a detective and an advisor for resolution runs the full spectrum of emotions. Part of that detective work involved uncovering who the players were in this debacle. My heart sank when I discovered who had "advised" the mech contractor. From there, I was able to tell the GC who had been the inside guy doing the design. I should have recognized his handywork - I've seen it before & with the same results every time.
GC does excellent work, BTW. Top notch stuff & wants to stand behind his work - even if he's got to eat $$$$$ to make things right. That's a refreshing start. He got a real edumakation today! He did something today I've never ever seen a GC do. When the HO appeared on the scene, the GC told him point blank he was accepting full responsibility for the screwed up systems and then proceeded to repeat to the HO what I'd told the GC was wrong. No beating around the bush. No finger pointing. No weaseling. I like this guy already.
The mechanical contractor should move on to doing something else besides hydronics. I've seen plenty of slop before, but this has set a new low. Solder stalagtites galore & pig wallow neatness! But even he was the middle guy & relied upon others. He's washed his hands of the room-to-room problems and is walking away from any responsibility - let the buyer beware.
The supply house in question is one we will not do business with and have not for many years now. The salesman/designer is the same bozo that sold me my GlowCore & furnished me with a boat load of lousy radiant advice many years ago. Evidently he's not learned a thing since then and has steadfastly continued to mislead those who know no better. He should be locked up and the key thrown away. At the very least, there should be a disclaimer stating he's flubbed many a radiant design and let the buyer beware - at least then the mechanical guys would know to ask someone else.
DO YOUR OWN DESIGNS AND HEAT LOSES - THERE'S NO EXCUSE NOT TO PERFORM THIS WORK YOURSELF! (If you're reading this and you don't do your own heat loss/design work {mech contractors only} - go outside where no one can see you & kick yourself in the arse! If not, someone else will do it for you one day.)
There was evidently no communication between the supply house salesman/designer to the mech contractor regarding proper installation methods and consequently, none between the mech contractor and the GC or insulator. What insulation between floors? 2nd floor carpet and pad (the worst kind of pad for radiant) cause further problems too? GD ceiling is warmer than the radiant flooring!
The first house we can fix. The second one will require major changes & I'll need someone like Gary Hayden to help me with the upper floor (he's way smarter than me & I value his judgement). Personally, I don't believe the existing installation can be fixed and I'm 99% certain we'll need to attack this from another angle. Shives me the gits though & I almost can't bring myself to abandon radiant tubing under tile floors. Jumpin jehosephat, they did not even run the damn tubing into the large walk-in shower flooring or its massive seat with room for six. Then there's the ceramic tile deck big enough to hold an entire clan surrounding a huge whirlpool - along a glass wall - brrrrr - 54 degrees F under the deck and surrounding that fiberglaas boat. No heated towel bars either & the GC loved that idea - "No one told us about them".
Suspended tube systems. 55 to 70 degree F D-T's. L----o----n----g tubing runs. No outdoor reset or other type of control beyond a blind 3-way mix that ain't piped properly anyway. What's supposed to be a modulating Korean POS is wired to go balls to the wall so they could use standard stats on the multiple zones. Its DC communicating stat sits on a shelf adjacent - adjusted to max. Delivering 175 degree F water to hardwood flooring, which returns at 110 F! The absolute worst butchering job of P/S piping I've ever seen - clueless. A boiler was replaced today because they couldn't figure out how to fix the first one's 3-way valve! These are only a few weeks old!!!!!
Didn't need a second boiler anyway. They had no clue how to obtain two temp zones from a single temp source, so both are now oversized.
Time to begin redesigning and then an offer to put things right in rasdiantville.
But you know what? This could all could have been avoided with a smattering of training. Not for the supply house designer/salesman - hell I've seen him at places and courses (like the Tekmar school, which he should have taken eight years prior to my seeing him there) that should have chased the demons of disaster from his feeble mind, so I'm convinced he's beyond learning anything beyond pushing product. (Same dufus who instructed me that my GlowCore had to be matched to the footage of PEX tubing rather than the actrual heat loss of the structure - D'OH!) I'm talking about the GC's and mechanical contractors who blindly place their trust in others hands.
The GC gets to pay twice and the mech contractor loses a very large account. There's no sense to that & no feeling of victory for me other than resolving the homeowner's comfort issues and maybe, just maybe - restoring their faith in radiant heating.
<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=98&Step=30">To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"</A>
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
0
Comments
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What a crying shame!!
That is an amazing story....kudos to the GC for stepping up and having ethics. That is rare these days. I wish some of the heating companies in my area would step up like that. I do ALL my own heat losses and have also been known to do designs for other contractors in my area (friends)and try to educate them. I only know of a few companies that can actually do their own heatloss, the rest, and there are a lot of them rely on the wholesaler to completely design there systems. On the positive side....even if you CAN'T get this system running, I am sure you have aquired a new customer (The GC).
Ernie Bogue
Master Hydronics LLC
PO Box 779
Keyport, WA 98345
(360) 394-2049
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Sounds all too
familiar.
There was a "rep" in my area that helped a few installs go south.
HO's would call me when the systems went belly up.
Anyway, he's gone now.(And if YOU happen to be reading this, there are a lot of people in this area that would like to meet YOU again)
You are exactly right Dave, do your own heat losses, get trained.
Good luck with the fix!
Mark H
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
You Have To Have A...
...licence to drive a car. But they'll sell a pipewrench to ANYBODY
0 -
Right On Dave
Simply amazin'. Sounds like you've got this pegged. And great advice for those who haven't learned how to do heat loss calcs. It's so important to the process. It's too bad wholesalers have stepped in to the design market. I understand it supports the sales process BUT....
Most of the designers have little, if any field, control or piping experience. JMHO
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been there
That ones real bad obviously BUT i hear the tale all the time and sadly right on this site and others. "No you don't need an oxygen barrier", "sure the rubber tube will last" , "no you don't need plates just heat the joist!" No you don't need a weather responsive controll just set it at 160!" "no you don't need a boiler just get a water heater and hook it to your plumbing too!."This type of disaster your telling us about is real and is growing. It is a unending chant, a mantra , put forth by some and sadly supported by some in the RPA .This idea that we've got to get prices down by cutting stuff out and doing it faster and cheaper. I've said it for over a decade, this is a mistake we cannot afford another campagnelli/levitown disaster.0 -
Lots of notes & photos taken
I've spent the last two+ hours pouring over my notes and the 70+ pictures I took today at both job sites. CYA!
I'm not going to post most of them. They're too depressing. But here's a few for your entertainment!
For "Danger Lurks" - see if you see the dangers lurking. Hint - these both drive the potable water too - think summer's breezes. (There's another danger too - it's a proximity thing.)
For "Nice & Safe" - I'm not familiar with the Quietside product, but please tell me that's not the recommended method of joining the SS to the PVC. Future Plex-Vent style recall???
For "Ragu" - 60' leader lengths just do not make sense. If they'd of understood hydronics, they'd have used remote manifolds. Wasted time, materials and Btu's. Nice hangers too!
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
again Dave
we are looking at identical botches, with identical deficiencies. I'm set to deliver the "fix" tomorrow, and the sad part, or maybe unusual part anyway, is that the homeowner is prepared to abandon her 2 yr old radiant on the second floor-they are not going to rip up the maple floor, nor tear out the ceiling below. They will install the "Classic" radiators from Burnham instead, to match the rest of the house.
It's oh,so easy do do radiant wrong. And so permanent are the mistakes.
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Come on Dave,
the PVC joints are very well done.
To bad he didn't stick to plumbing.0 -
You gotta understand it was just so easy to remove cellar window for venting. I am sure the owners don't open that window (above) and ah heck who needs 4' from gas meters 0 -
Pondering
I'm thinking 2-stage with tempered floor conditioning as my first stage so the tile bath floors don't feel like skating on ice! Like Goldilocks - not too hot, not too cold, just right(G).
I drove right past Burnham (twice) getting back & forth between these two jobs. Would have liked to stop in & say howdy, but no spare time.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
and
Look where all of the condensate is drizzling (one is actively doing so in the pic).
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
they
are going for a re-tile, eh? WHat are you gonna use for the 2 stage stat? tekmar?
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After seeing the cluster job with the pex I find it difficult to believe the GC could be very competent. To allow a so called tech be that sloppy leads me to think you must be careful with this character. It looks like he doesn't know the defference between motion and progress!
"Show Me The Money" (G)
al0 -
Hope
they don't get any snow drifts........0 -
Ah yes....
The ancient, forgotten art of tube weaving. Nicely complemented with a little silicone sculpting. Best appreciated when reeling under the influence of carbon monoxide poisoning.
And that window well should fill up with acidic condensate ice in no time with the temperatures you guys have been having lately.
How can someone pack so many blunders and ugliness into such a small space??? It's as if he were actually TRYING TO !
Pretty sad and unfortunate.
Oh well... something good will come of it. If nothing else, at least it's an excuse to drink heavily!0 -
What a mess
I hate to have to say this, but if I were that HO I'd sue those incompetent fools.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
I see victory
Dave, when you say, "There's no sense to that & no feeling of victory for me other than resolving the homeowner's comfort issues..." you are selling yourself short and are wrong. I believe you have educated a GC (and a good one from the sound of it) and likely have now helped EVERY job he undertakes in the future. As a homeowner, I find that a victory because someday, my life savings may be in the hands of a GC.
Keep it up!
-cf0 -
Hard to believe
An "on the ball" GC could watch this type of work and consider it industry standard. Low bid perhaps? I think the GC owes it to the owner to buck up and make it right, if he allowed this to go on while representing the best intrests of the homeowner.
Were the other trades held to this low standard?
I'm all for education. Rentless and ongoing. I feel, however the players involved with this job probably aren't the type to sit in a classroom and learn some radiant and piping basics!
I hate for homeowners to come here and see this type of work, gives the industry yet another black eye, in my opinion.
hot rodBob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Which is why
you won't be seeing lots of the pictures. Even simple installation instruction that specfically state no more than 3 90's may be used. 4.5 on one, 5 on the other & short turn radius instead of the long sweep 90's called for. Sure they work now. The exhaust blowers are new. Give it a year or two, if these little problematic boilers last that long, and the exhaust fault codes will begin as the motor weakens.
Wasn't even a low bid situation. The GC was used to this sub on his other non-radiant projects & asked him if he could do radiant work. You know the answer.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Where was the
local gas inspector??? How could he let that go? People in Massachusetts often complain about tough codes/multiple inspections. But I know of no inspector who would let the venting on those units pass. That is a shame.
Chuck Shaw
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i am...
so fortunate to have a great salesman/ engineer. He does a great job with the heat loss calcs for many of my radiant jobs..... he is always trying to learn more (ie reading ...he even attended Wetstock!) We should all know the process of a heat loss but if you do have a good/competent engineer who will help you out why not utilize him! Is it not more of a partnership relationship we should have? My 2 cents....kpc
0 -
MIA
The inspector completely missed this one & it's right smack in the middle of the front as you pull in the driveway. First thing I saw.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
CSST
is wonderful to work with but there's no excuse to not run it as straight and true as if it were black pipe! Unfortunately I've seen similar pex jobs where the homeowner thought he had a great install. Sometimes it's not worth it to burst their bubble, they think you're just picking apart their job. Terry0
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