My Mom's heating system - PICTURES

Mike Kusiak

It is a little hard to see from the photo, but it appears that the plain steel expansion tank is connected to a tee fitting on the vertical outlet pipe, instead of an air collector tapping on the top of the boiler. If so air collected in the boiler will be circulated through the system instead of being returned to the expansion tank. The air will then collect in the first and highest radiator causing it to become airbound. I had a similar problem with a retrofit Burnham boiler installed by a so called "pro" who piped the plain expansion tank similarly. I repiped the expansion tank as per the Burnham installation manual, and the air problem disappeared, even with the circulator pumping into the boiler and toward the tank. It seems many contractors today are so used to diaphragm tanks that they forget air must be returned from the boiler and system to a conventional steel tank.

Craig_2

My Mom's heating system - Pictures

I finally found those pictures of my Mom's boiler and a typical takeoff. The old thread fell off the Wall so we'll start anew.

Hot water, direct return, not pumping away, two bottom-connected cast iron radiators on second floor not heating. I got some air when I bled these. I suspect the system may not be filled all the way. I asked if it were possible to give a ballpark estimate for changing the system to pumping away so I could budget for it. Someone (Mark?) asked for pictures.

Here they are. Two of the boiler, one of a typical takeoff.

-cf

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

There's something

preventing flow through those radiators and it might be that one of those plug valves next to the boiler is closed. Did you check them?

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Craig_2

Not there...

Problem isn't there. Just two of the radiators aren't getting hot. Hot water is reaching all the take-offs.

-cf

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Oh

Are you sure that any valves supplying those radiators are open?

If so, have you tried turning off all the other radiators except the ones that are not heating to see if they wake up?

Also, have you purged all the air from the system? If there are horizontal runs to those radiators, they might have some air in them that would slow down or stop flow.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

John MacGregor_2

cold radiators

If you got some air and no water at those radiators, you don't have enough pressure on the boiler.

J.C.A.

Good call Mike !

There is a tapping on the top of the boiler for just that expansion tank .The other option is to install a diaphram tank . Good eyes ! Took me a while to see that . Chris

Boilerpro

I see a whole host of piping problems...

I'd first see why you can't get water out of yours rads...the water level sounds much too low and could become very dangerous if the boiler runs dry. Sounds like you have a high mass system.... big pipes, cast iron rads all which hold lots of water. The boiler is probably operating much too cold most of the year...below 140F... with lots of rust on the burners and in the burner tray at the end of every heating season. Number one thing that needs to be changed is some sort of boiler temperature protection to keep the boiler running up to proper temp. Yep, expansion tank connection needs to run to the nipple on top of boiler just behind the supply pipe and moving the pump to the supply just to the system side of the pressure reducing valve connection would be good. Your installation is typical of most that I see, pointing too a poor state of affairs in the boiler industry, which, I believe, is now changing. I'd check into finding a true pro near you that has done some boiler installation training in the past 5 years. There are lots right here at this site that may be able to help.


Boilerpro

Mike Kusiak

Boiler piping

Thee more I look at these pictures, something else bothers me about this boiler piping. I am not too familiar with Weil-Mclean, but it appears that the positions of the piping for the relief valve and outlet piping are reversed. At least on Burnham boilers, the outlet is taken off the side, and the top tapping is used for the relief valve and air removal. If the outlet is taken off the top tapping, all the trapped air will go with the flow and wind up in the radiators, which appears to be what is happening. Ill bet the air is winding up in the two radiators off the left branch of the vertical piping, which offers a more direct path for air bubbles to rise.

Alan

Feedback from a layman

To clarify right from the beginning, this is not professional advice.
It is open to criticism and correction from folks in the business.

Just relaying my experience as a homeowner who has benefited from Dan's books and deciphering mounds of information from the very helpful folks at The Wall.
(We live in an area that is dominated by scorched air folks, thus my hands-on solutions.)
We had a completely mind-boggling array of problems with banging/clanging/gurgling/hissing when we bought our 1950s era home in 1996 with a Burnham gas boiler and two baseboard zones with B&G circulators.

It is possible to have a normally functioning and perfectly quiet system without the benefit of air elimination devices and bladder tanks. It just takes a bit more getting acquainted with you system and establishing a working routine for your particular setup.
A good analogy would be a carburated car vs. fuel injection - it just takes a bit more tinkering but the end result is the same - a well tuned car.

1. Follow/chart the pipes in your circuit and locate ALL bleed valves.
There can be hidden ones between floor joists, usually accessible through small removeable panels.

2. Check to see if you have a B&G Airtrol valve on your steel tank. (If you do, great.)

3. After you check for 1 & 2, and assuming the automatic fill/pressure reducing valve is functioning properly,
shut down the system and let it cool. (Make sure the power is cut off to the boiler.)

4. The final step takes a bit of running around.
(From my experience and others I've read over the years, the most common mistake is attempting to bleed air out of the system when the problem is the system is not filled to capacity. Bleed valves are opened without additional makeup water introduced into the system to help push the air out and also to bring the system pressure up to the proper level.)

After you make sure you've taken care of step 1 (very important), open the fill valve and start bleeding air starting at the upper ones. You need to keep an eye on the pressure gauge on the boiler and turn off the fill valve occasionally. Once you're somewhat sure the system is full, shut off the fill valve and go to your steel expansion tank....

5. Open the Airtrol valve and draw water out of the tank until air starts spurting out. Turn off the Airtrol.
Go to the boiler pressure gauge and check the pressure - typically should read between 12 - 15 lbs but I don't think they are 100% accurate. Mine hovers around 15 on average.
The final step is where some folks may offer other methods, but I draw more air/water out through the Airtrol if I need to bring down the (cold) system pressure.

After two seasons of head scratching and research, we've had three winters of trouble-free heat and the only thing I've had to do is replace the thermocouple.
This heating season I decided to remove the burner tubes and gave them a good cleaning although they looked fine in general.
Have not had to mess with the water side of the system and pressure gauge has been stable.

I did have to redo the horizontal piping leading the steel tank because it did not have an upward pitch.
Also, some under-slab sections of the basement zone were bypassed to elminate any possiblity of a slow leak in the system.
The B&G fill valve/pressure reducer assembly was swapped out for a new one.
And the series 100 pump for the basement zone has a new coupler, bearing seals and suspension.

The general routine these days is to check the pressure gauge and "listen" whenever the system is operating.
The automatic fill valve is kept closed.
No, we don't have a GuardDog installed....
Our setup is pumping away.

Craig_2

Thanks and more info

Thanks for all the replies. I was away for a day and couldn't respond until now.

First, I know where all the bleeder valves are. All work fine (spit water, sometimes a little air first). The only two radiators not heating are on the second floor. They are the only radiators on the second floor. They are both bottom fed and bottom return which Dan's "Pumping Away" suggests can be hard to fill. First floor and basement are comfortable.

There are no hidden shutoff valves that are closed.

The expansion tank is piped as Mark suggests. That's a good eye because I agree those pictures aren't the best.

I suspect the system is not filled all the way and therefore the two on top are not heating. How do I fill the system? (Assuming this is a do-it-yourself activity.)

Second question, how much should I budget to put the sytem into a pumping away configuration? $500? $1500? Looking for a ballpark. Plenty of room to work down there as you can see!

Thanks again everyone.
-cf

Alan

another note from the layman


You are bleeding with the fill valve open ?
This way the incoming water helps push out the trapped air.
Also, I mentioned locating all bleeder valves - one I missed that was hidden in the ceiling for the basement zone was where all the trapped air was preventing the basement zone to fill completely. I could have filled a tire with the amount of pressure that had built up near that valve.
Even if you are sure you located all the bleeders, check again.
I found some in some very strange locations, some painted over or half buried in plaster.

Mike Kusiak

Water level

If you are getting water out of the two bleeder valves at the top of the radiators on the second floor (highest point in system), then the system should be full of water. Check the pressure-temperature gauge on the boiler to see if you have at least 12 PSI with system cold. That should be enough to get water to the highest radiator.

John Cockerill

uneven heat.

Yes the system should be full. Check that water comes out the relief valve in the highest radiators. Check pressure guage on front of boiler. Limits are in manufactureres brochure. If pressure goes to high it will blow off. Have a bucket under relief. Check the aquastat temperature ranges, differential. Sit with the boiler through one hour and keep track of how long the circulator is on. If the thermostat calls for heat less than 50 % of the time you may want to reduce your aquastat High Limit setting to 150 degrees. This should even out your circulation and comfort. www.exqheat.com

heretic

Nice coatrack

In that picture.