Electronic Descaler

hot_rod

will always be there.

I respect Tony Conner for his knowledge as it pertains to industrial steam. He knows what he is talking about. It is tough to prove operation, and I would NEVER recommend their application in a CRITICAL (steam) application.

However, that said, I have used them in numerous potable hot water heating applications through out these United States and I can safely say that under MOST considerations, they do work. As to how they work, I don't know, but I have seen the proof, and they do work.

As Jim said, there are numerous companies out there making them, one in particular since the early 70's, and they're not a small company. I'd just have to believe, that if their product didn't work as all the skeptics say, they'd have been out of business a LONG time ago. But the fact is, they're still here, and they've sold their units to the Navy and other such organizations (NASA).

Again, coming from one who beleives in science, I can't tell you how they work, but they CAN work. I say can because I have seen a couple of cases where they didn't work (silicone based glassification as opposed to calcium based scale). I can also say the same for ion exchange conditioners. Beat me up if you must, but I've HAVE seen them work in places that even I had my doubts (Buffalo NY).

To each his own...

ME

J Burns

Electronic Descaler

I work at a large high school in central n.j., every month or so we get the latest snake-oil salesman coming thru. The latest product is an electronic water descaler. I was wondering if anyone has used such a product. We would be using it for domestic as well as boiler feedwater. My biggest concern is if we go from chemically treated water to this system how will we know if it is actully working, salesman claims no hardness test can be proformed.

Gary Fereday

skeptical!

I'd stay with the tried and true water treatment your now useing. I do not like someone who says that tests do not show results. HUH ! since when. And a School system is a very big risk to a guess! I have one of those Magnetic things here on my house. And the shower head still plugged up so~~~~~. jmho bigugh

Brian (Tankless) Wood

I wish folk would

reserve their "snake oil salesman" comments regarding products thet don't understand, until after the products have had time to either prove, or disprove themselves.

Is everything you don't understand, "snake oil" ?

There is a regular poster here, from Able Distributors I believe, who has something similar at his website. This man has a very reputable business going, and I think he would take offence at being called what you called the rep who visited your school.

Ask what guarantees & warantees he offers, before calling him names.

For years, I was laughed at by closed-minded folk (esp' plumbers in the south) who wouldn't even think of using or selling an instantaneous or tankless water heater. Why, because "my grandaddy & daddy didn't use them, & I ain't gonna use em", and "if tanks were good enough fer dem, dey good enough fer me" Those words were actually spoken by licensed plumbers who didn't know the difference between a btu & a watt.

So I started selling them around town, and now they call, asking if I still sell "them there tankless thangs".

Go figure.

Brian (still selling "snake oil" water heaters) Wood.

Tony Conner

If You Have...

...a straight building heating operation, either hot water or steam with pretty much 100% condensate return, why do you need to do anything regarding scale control? The only reason scale forms is from hard water make-up. No make-up, no scale. If you have any amount of make-up water, you have leaks. The correct solution is mechanical, not chemical. Fix the leaks.

I don't argue much with magnetic/ion stick "water conditioning" guys any more. I just ask if any recognized body like the Canadian Standards Association, ASME, National Board, etc has approved these devices. Not that I know of. The other question I have is the same as yours - how do I test them to ensure that they're working? No test that I know of, other than "the indicator light is on". All that means to me is that there's power to a light bulb.

newlove

testing magnetism.

it must work! wife gave me magnet insoles for my shoes.
they hurt my feet. hid insoles on Ptrap under bathroom sink.
no stoppage in years. magnets have passed the test of time.

keep your witts about you! newlove

Brian (Tankless) Wood

Nobody mentioned magnets.

Not me anyway.

Anyone heard of a company called Halliburton Services, the biggest oilfield service company on earth. They chose not to wait for the ok from gov't regulated agencies. They went with their gut, and now they sell it.

Trust me, Halliburton does not suffer fools or snake oil salesmen.

But like I said, I didn't mention magnets.

I don't sell them either, but I do have them on my home water supply. After 7.5 years, my 28kw Seisco electric tankless water heater has absolutely zero scale to be found anywhere in the unit.

We do get to choose which century we live in, don't we. I love choice, don't you.

Try www.triangularwave.com interesting stuff.

"Better living through chemicals" I prefer not.

Brian (21st century tankless) Wood.

Tony Conner

Nobody Mentioned...

...tankless water heaters either, but you offered a dissertation on those in an earlier posting, right? Forgive me, but I'm not connecting the dots on the function of tankless water heaters, and "electronic descalers".

"They chose not to wait for the ok from gov't regulated agencies. They went with their gut..."? Sure wouldn't want to have a business decision influence by, oh I dunno - the likes of physics or chemistry or some other such 20th century boring nonsense as that.

You'll have to pardon me if I go with MY gut and look to the organizations who have no stake in the sales of any device or product, to furnish me with unbiased information. Even though they have they annoying habit of, y'know, demanding actual, tangible scientific PROOF that something functions as intended before they bless it.

And the fact that some huge corporation is doing one thing or another doesn't do much for me in light of recent events in the world of big business. Too many cases lately, of the guys at the top of the pile, spinning yarns for the shareholders & media, and at the same time looting the till while backing toward the exit. (Often arm in arm with the outside accounting firm.) I'm sure there are very honest CEOs and CFOs out there, but from where I sit, I can't tell 'em apart from the bandits, so I have to treat them ALL with suspicion.

Jim Davis

Electronic Descaler

Electronic descaling and water conditioning has been around for over 100 years. Initially farmers found out that by running water through a magnetic field it would absorb into the dry ground faster. Many companies have made these types of devices for years and are even on the Space Shuttle. The limitations here are that they can only handle a fixed flow. The electronic units were developed in Europe and one manufacturer that I have dealt with bought the patent rights 7-8 years ago and started distributing them for the HVAC industry. I was given multiple demo's to verify their performance. We tried whole house water systems, ice machines, dishwasher, cooling towers and recently swamp coolers. They work!! The amazing part to me is that they just don't pervent scale, they actually remove it.(Something a softener can't do) They come with a 6 month satisfaction guarantee and 5 years warranty. Mount externally on the piping, use 24volts (adapter comes with unit)and work on all piping except lead. Contact www.nationalinstitute.com for additional info.

Tony Conner

Any...

...approvals from the previously mentioned code bodies? How about from equipment manufacturers like Marley, BAC, Trane, Carrier, Foster Wheeler, Babcock & Wilcox, etc? Do they approve of the use of your device in place of tradional water treatment on their equipment? What's the test to prove that the unit is functioning/continuing to function?

Tony Conner

I'm Not..

...out to beat anyone up. Just looking for answers to my couple of questions. If I manufacturered or sold these devices, I'd step up and provide an effective response to them, if I could. The response so far, has been "limited" to say the least.

And why would somebody in Buffalo have domestic hard water problems? They'll pull their municipal water out of Lake Erie. Great Lakes water runs around 120 - 140 PPM hardness. I don't know of anyone who gets their domestic water out of these lakes who needs a softener, or anything else. And I've lived in places that get their municipal water out of these lakes most of my life. It's not hard enough to cause any measurable problems with water heaters, etc.

hot_rod

Cheektowaga

New York (subdivision of Buffalo) had some extremely hard water. The maintenance heater element on their dishwasher and their copper fin tube boilers failed in less than 5 years of being installed due to hard water conditions. They installed sodium ion exchange softeners, and that seemed to work. Eventually the softeners failed and the elements and CFT boilers also failed. I replaced the DHW system and installed magnetic water conditioners on the supply to the kitchen hot water heating system.

One year later, I happened to ask the chief engineer what he thought of the conditioners performance. He said he'd not really had a chance to evaluate it, so we took a walk over to the Hobart dishwasher in the kitchen area. He lifted the door to the unit and said "Holy Sh*&!!" My heart sunk to my knees. I figured I'd failed. He then went on to say "This is the cleanest I've seen this machine in the 15 years I've worked here!! Look, you can actually see the maintenance element in the wet well box!!"

I kid you not.

I'm sure these people have probably approached the Babcock-Wilcox's and other people you mentioned, and like you (rightfully so) they asked for proof and verifiable data, which I'm sure they could not provide. It can not be tested in PPM or any other recognizable industrial accepted means. The proof is in the pudding. Problem is, when you're dealing with large power plant steam systems if it doesn't work, you could be faced with a multi million dollar pudding problem. And NO ONE wants one of them hanging around their neck. Not even me.

ME

Tony Conner

But...

...I'm not looking for anecdotal evidence or personal experience. There's lots of that to be had from people who really believe they've seen these things work. I'm looking for documentation of approval from CSA, ASME, or other recognized body for these water treatment devices. I'm looking for documentation from any major manufacterers of equipment, like boilers, chillers, cooling towers, etc who approve of this kind of device in lieu of conventional water treatment methods. I'm looking for evidence of a proper, verifiable test that can be run to ensure that the unit is functioning/continuing to function.

This is it. I am drawing a line in the magnetic field I am absolutely steadfast in looking for effective responses to the perfectly reasonable points I've raised. And the silence from the manufacturers and vendors of these devices on these points, is truely deafening.

This is an open invitation to convince me. I've worked with chemicals for a lot of years. I don't really like them, but I KNOW they work, and their performance can be tested. I can prove it with chemistry, which, like mathematics, has only one right answer to any given question. Show me the approval documentation, and verifiable testing procedure for one of these "alternative" devices, and I'll ditch the conventional chemicals in a heartbeat. But first, pretend I'm not from Canada, but from Missouri - "show me" the documentation. I don't think I'll be putting my Betz and Nalco water treatment books up for sale on ebay any time soon, though.

Brian (Tankless) Wood

First off, Conner.

I thought you weren't going to get into this.

Are you making repeat (money) business from chemicals? If you are, quit reading, because you are too attached to the past, and your wallet, to see clearly.

Maybe connecting the "Tankless to Magnets" dots was a stretch for you. I only have a tankless water heater in my house, is that simple enough for you. Would you like me to substitute an energy-wasting dinosaur tank instead, maybe just like the one you have in your home.

That gets me to my point. Did you say that you would take the word of a single, brand-name appliance manufacturer, that alternative treatments, or magnets work.

If anyone has installed a "Pro-line" gas or electric tank water heater from the "American Water Heater company", he has bought, paid for, endorsed and installed a magnetic water treatment device.

Tony, if your reply sounds something like "but I didn't mean some cheapass american water heater maker" then don't bother to respond.

I'm through.

Tony Conner

So...

...no documentation, or test procedure huh? Bummer.

And just for the record, I don't sell chemicals or any other water treatment equipment of any kind. Never have.