Oil line problem

Firedragon_4 · January 2003

and before I forget again, nice job!

Everything changes, what's new. The last thing I had from the old Webster they were pushing the cover down, these guys say the same thing, but added 'any postion'. Thanks for the link, BTW, been trying to find them.

Steve D · January 2003

Oil line problem.

Have a situation I can't figure out. Two 275 gal tanks in basement. Top fill on tank 1 with cross over to tank 2. Fuel gauge and vent alarm on tank 2. Oil feed to burner is also from the top of both tanks, tee'd together for a single pipe to burner. Boiler ran out of oil on Sunday night. Found tank 1 empty but tank 2 is full. I capped off tank 1 and restarted boiler and it has been cycling since from only tank 2.

What am I missing?
Thanks,
Steve

Peter mark · January 2003

It occurs to me to ask if the cross over piping is at the bottom of the two tanks? Secondly, how is the top of the tanks twined togethret. Are the both effectively vented? Hope this helps...

Firedragon_4 · January 2003

Peter's question is the same as mine, but

are the tanks also at the same height?
Everything counts in paralled cross-over tank installs.

Steve D · January 2003

Sorry for lack of details. Tanks are identical in size. The crossover piping is 1 1/2" tied in at the top of the tanks so you can't get any oil into #2 until tank 1 is full. Vent pipe (1 1/2") is on tank 2.

Thanks,
Steve

Tom M. · January 2003

crossover piping

tanks should be piped across at the bottom if they are inside the building. The line from the full tank must be blocked. I like to put a Garber filter on each tank with a restriction indicator on one of them. Use copper line to connect so that there is no physical stress as a result of settling etc. Put the tee halfway between. I used to put the tee on one tank and run copper to the other but I've had the same situation that you're in. The filters won't need to be changed every year, flush the line and check the restriction indicator. If the needle goes into the red, replace both filters. I have this arrangement in my house and the filters have gone four years. The way this piping arrangement works is that tank 1 fills then tank 2 fills up to ventalarm. Then the piping at the bottom allows the levels to equalize. There is a good diagram in the Mass. fire code if you have it. New installs in Mass. require the top crossover be 2".

jim f · January 2003

CROSSOVER TANKS

[Deleted User] · January 2003

We are installing

more and more dual 330 gallon tanks w/ no bottom equalizing line. Don't much like the idea of 330 or 660 gallons on a boiler room floor or down a drain.

Tanks are same height. Suction stubs in tanks are same length. Suction stubs (2) are 1 size smaller than supply to burner. No return line. Filter adequate for burner firing rate. OSV Valve a must. Both at tank. Yes. We use 2" crossover. Also 2" fill and vent w/ 00209 Scully Ventalarm. Envirotube or equivalent oil lines sleeved in 1/2" Greenfield. Boots do nasty things to unprotected lines. Costs too much? Consider the alternative.

To date, no problems w/ tank fuel level not going down together. The guys rolled their eyes when they saw the first drawing. Now, they think it's magic.

Bob Boltz · January 2003

Bottom Piping

Bottom pipes should be flexible, if one tank settles pipe will break and all the oil will be on floor. Check NFPA 31 the oil burner code for details. Been there, done that.

Firedragon_4 · January 2003

Sorry Bob, you're wrong on that one!

There's nothing in NFPA31 on that issue. Even in MA where our code states just about everything there's no provision for that.

But having the tanks 'securely supported by rigid noncumbustible supports to prevent settling, sliding or lifting' is. (NFPA31-2001 7.5.12)

In addition, if cast-iron fittings (8.2.5.4) are used and they are properly supported (8.2.6) as Roger Litman does it you probably wouldn't have ever seen it.

But, I have too, and in most cases it's because someone didn't play by the rules, FACT!

Firedragon_4 · January 2003

Not to bust your chops Jim, just

a couple of questions?
Why are the osv's upside down and why is the tank valve on the left closed?

Just asking!

Jackchips · January 2003

What is

an osv and it's purpose? Also, doesn't Mass still require a gate or ball valve before the fire-a-matic?

Thanks

Unknown · January 2003

Ron , do you have a pic or drawing

of how they are piped ? I know Roth tanks can equalize together with no crossover piping below the tank . How do you do it with regular 330 tanks ? Thanks for any help .

Firedragon_4 · January 2003

Osv's and other valves.

Let me take the easy part of your questions first.

No, we no longer require a second valve at the outlet of the tank. It was done away with in 1997, two years after the 'big' rewrite. The 'Firomatic' meets the requirement for a 'hand-operated, fusible, springloaded valve' as described in 527CMR4.04(2)(i).

Second part, second :-)!
The prv or osv was originally created in the early-1970's as a 'dynamic pressure reducer' to protect pump seals and other components in pressurized fuel systems. The only alternative to that valve was one produced (still is) by Preferred Utilities as an 'anti-syphon' valve.

An enterprising oil dealer here in my hometown (Sam Nigro) discovered (mid-1970's) that if you placed the valve into a gravity fed line you would get no flow with a broken line.

After a lot of work on the part of the Boston Chapter of NAOHSM and the old BHHC (now MOC) the valve was aproved into the reg (FPR-3) at that time as a device for the protection of unseen oil line failures.

Although many of us (self-included) would like to see a device that would also protect the filter, it is not the osv or prv.

The OEM's concerned do not recommend that application and I don't believe they are UL approved for that either. Use of a listed device other than for what it is listed for voids all warranties and places you in liablity and 'out-of-code', FACT!

I also want someone to produce one (osv-prv) that will go outside and handle being over three feet above the burner. But, it's nice to want, it gives you something to hope for!

Sorry to be so long-winded, but you asked for it!
Watch for our NFPA31/211 and CMR4 seminars this summer.

Jackchips · January 2003

A concise,

informative response like that would never be taken as long winded.

Thanks again.

jim f · January 2003

info on osv's

heres some literature.and the valve is off because only one out of the two boilers were running at that time!!
check out mounting column!!

http://www.websterfuelpumps.com

Joe Grosso · January 2003

Jim I have a Question

On my installs I put the filter before the osv so that no sediment gets into the osv.I believe this is the way suntec or webster wants their valves installed.Just curious.By the way inice work:)

Tom M. · January 2003

If memory serves me correctly,

the tag included with the OSV said that putting the vent hole downward would make it easier to remove air on startup. The link you included said it was to keep dirt out. Iguess things do change. I was under the impression that they were being discontinued (but that could be that my supplier no longer carries them). I've been using the Suntec PRV without problems, any opinions on that valve?

As far as the three foot thing, if a valve were designed to protect over a greater height difference, it might cause problems with the added vacuum required to open it. The freezing thing may have to do with the flexibility of the diaphragm in the valve and/or the possibilty of moisture or other debris freezing and causing the valve to stick open or closed. In the case of cold oil running through the valve inside a warm basement, there would probably be condensation and icing inside the vent chamber. If it were to fill with ice, the valve would be physically unable to close. Any attempt to insulate or vapor barrier could block the vent hole or create pressure or vacuum in the chamber that is supposed to be vented. Sorry if I'm rambling, just thinking out loud, I guess.

Firedragon_4 · January 2003

Good thinking!

jim f · January 2003

100%

you are 100% correct joe. just started piping them and not thinking on operation.
thanks for the kind words. my question on flexible piping on the equilizing line?? what size flexible line should be used?? 3/8? way to small 1/2 way to small imho?? if i were to pipe in flexable copper i would pipe them 5/8? what do you guys think. i have been hard piping bottom equilizing lines for years and never had a line break from settiling

Bob Bona_4 · January 2003

Hi Jim

I use 1/2" OD copper bent into a 360 degree loop (like a pigtail) between tanks. 3/8 T on one tank valve w/ filter (if it fits). I haven't seen a hard pipe equalizer break, but I've seen plenty weep/drip from the stresses of the tanks expansion/contraction/settling. There is absolutely no give. Not good.

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Oil line problem

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