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Thread Leak in Cast Iron to Bronze Valve
EDDIE GRIERSON_2
Member Posts: 32
I have been using smart thread sealent from Energy Kinetics. It is rather pricey, but you don't need much for each joint. I can testify to this stuff. I have threaded copper male adaptors into water heaters and sweated them afterwards and they have not leaked. I have backed fittings out a quarter turn and they have not leaked. GOOD STUFF!
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Comments
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Thread Leak in Cast Iron to Bronze Valve
I've got a double leak on both sides of a bronze body gate valve with castiron pipe. This is on a hydronic boiler (not steam) in the horizontal supply side, between the watts air separator and the tee with the purge valve/vertical riser directly off the boiler.
manifold===Watts======Gatevalve=======Tee||
I used plenty of pipe dope (installed in Oct 2002), I tightened plenty! Could it be the pipe dope? Is there "special" pipe dope when going from bronze to cast iron?
There's no wiggle room to retighten (two 90* elbows on either end plus freshfeed and Extrol on bottom of the Watts air sep)) without taking it all apart.
I will cut the horizontal castiron and redo with a union involved and a new valve since I don't want to crack it when reinstalling old valve.
So is there a better pipe dope to use here other than the white paste type w/teflon in the goop?
Patchogue Phil
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pipe dope
i like megalock it works also might try teflon tape and pipe dope
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Wicking
When I was an apprentice I was told that pipe dope does not "make" the joint. It's real purpose is to lubricate the threads so you can get the tapered thread to seal with metal to metal contact. Any sealing done by pipe sope id incidental, but appreciated. If you look at the taper on threads this makes sense, IMHO. On big inch threaded pipe we used to use "wicking", a string like product and with a fine blade screw driver kinda yarn the join, driving the yarn into the threads. As the joint leaked it would expand the wiching and take up the leak. then the joint would seal itself over time. Certainly, it is better to do as you suggest and just "do it right", but a leak on a long joint in an impossible position sometimes required this.0 -
Once is almost
a thing, but there is always Twice to be expected. Cracked or split threads on the pipe going into the valve. I have seen it a lot one one side of a valve never on both sides, but there is always the first time. Be sure to replace those nipples! and to tighten up the joint and use your dope! bigugh!0 -
I don't know what the solution is...
but I too have had the same experience in differing metal connections. I have a standing rule of tripple doping all threaded connections, paste, tape and paste, and even with this overkill, I've experienced minor leaks at the cast iron side of the joint.
I suspect it has to do with the difference in coefficients of expansion. I too was told that in the old days, goose grease was the only thing applied to threads to make them up, and that it was a lubricant and not a sealant.
I suspect that the standards of threads were much tighter back then than they are now. Todays lack of conformance requires us to use a "thread sealant" as is evidenced by the manufacturers literature on their products.
"Seals leaks even on damaged threads" ring a bell???
I'm thinking that the solution may be in some of the harsher chemicaled products, like Loc-Tite. There's a blue one out there that comes with Buderus tanks to make up for the difference in the American versus Germans standard threads. The name escapes me, but it is some POTENT smelling stuff. Also has to set for a while before pressure can be applied.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Maybe, just maybe some day the FDA and the DEA will get their heads out of their butts and allow us to import some of the hemp based thread sealants that are used in Europe.
ME
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Super Dope
When there's ever a problem sealing a threaded joint, we use Super Dope. It hardens and seals in the absence of air - anaerobic.
The last time we used it was when we installed TRV's on old steel pipe where the threads were all munged up.
In the past, we've used it on non-tapered threads that we see on European valves.
It works where no other sealant does, including Loc-Tite.
Here's the link to my supplier:
http://www.argco.com/cgi-bin/foundation/1010086.html
although we buy it in the smaller tubes. It's very expensive, but I'd buy it at twice the price.
By the way, there's a $100 minimum order at Argco; I had to buy 5 tubes at $20/tube. If you want to try some, let me know and I'll sell you some of mine.
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I can't remember the name right now, but
I have lately used a type of wicking that looks like dental floss. You just wind it on and go. Of course I couldn't bring myself to trust it all by itself yet, so I've been putting teflon paste on over it and so far it has cured the occasional problem. If it will hold 30 PSI of air, it will hold water too. It's a little bit on the ugly side, as some of it will get pushed out as you tighten it, but it sure looks better than a drip, and it's much more user friendly and quicker than teflon tape. Kevin
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cast iron pipe?
What is this cast iron pipe that is being refered to?
Cast fittings yes, but surely the pipe is black iron.
As to the leaks, it is possible the joints were over tightend and brass has stretched.The valve will have to be replaced.
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It Won't Be...
..."black iron pipe" either. Once upon a time they made "wrought iron pipe", but they haven't made wrought iron anything for over 50 years, and as far back as 1916, some big mills were ending production of wrought iron pipe as not enough people were willing to pay the extra 20 or 30% over the cost of steel pipe.
What you get now is steel pipe, in various grades of crapulance. A53F is what you'll usually get if you ask for "black" pipe. Often nasty stuff with poor quality control. It's made by taking flat strips of steel, heating it, and running it through a series of rollers. It's formed to shape, and the edges pressed together to make the pipe. It's known a "continuous" or "furnace" weld. The edges are more than just pressed together, but not much. Then next step is A53B ERW. Pretty much the same steel, but the joint is electric resistance welded - "ERW". It's a decent grade of pipe. The best commercially available stuff is A016B. It's drawn over a mandrel, and is seamless. I've hit some offshore third world A106B lately, and it's not what it was either. Some of it was oversized enough on the OD that it was hard to get the die head over it. When you buy galvanized, all you're getting is A53F or A53B that's been dipped. Other than that, it's exactly the same pipe.
Many fittings are junk as well. Even the "good" forged steel ones. I got some 3000# 1/2" 90s on the last job that were drilled and tapped as crookedly as any 150 malleable I've seen lately. And they weren't (shouldn't have been?) third world junk either. "Bonney Forge". Very disappointing.
And unions - junk in all grades and classes. A "good" 3000# forged steel union - it shouldn't take me (250 lbs) and my son the 270 lb karate instructor standing on each side of a 2" union with both of us on the same 24" and 18" pipe wrenches just "givin' 'er" to make these things stop dripping.
I'm tired of junk. Especially when I spend the extra money to buy grades of material that exceed the code requirements for the job, so I WON'T HAVE PROBLEMS!
Thanks - I needed to say that.0 -
> ..."black iron pipe" either. Once upon a time
> they made "wrought iron pipe", but they haven't
> made wrought iron anything for over 50 years, and
> as far back as 1916, some big mills were ending
> production of wrought iron pipe as not enough
> people were willing to pay the extra 20 or 30%
> over the cost of steel pipe.
>
> What you get now
> is steel pipe, in various grades of crapulance.
> A53F is what you'll usually get if you ask for
> "black" pipe. Often nasty stuff with poor quality
> control. It's made by taking flat strips of
> steel, heating it, and running it through a
> series of rollers. It's formed to shape, and the
> edges pressed together to make the pipe. It's
> known a "continuous" or "furnace" weld. The edges
> are more than just pressed together, but not
> much. Then next step is A53B ERW. Pretty much the
> same steel, but the joint is electric resistance
> welded - "ERW". It's a decent grade of pipe. The
> best commercially available stuff is A016B. It's
> drawn over a mandrel, and is seamless. I've hit
> some offshore third world A106B lately, and it's
> not what it was either. Some of it was oversized
> enough on the OD that it was hard to get the die
> head over it. When you buy galvanized, all you're
> getting is A53F or A53B that's been dipped. Other
> than that, it's exactly the same pipe.
>
> Many
> fittings are junk as well. Even the "good" forged
> steel ones. I got some 3000# 1/2" 90s on the last
> job that were drilled and tapped as crookedly as
> any 150 malleable I've seen lately. And they
> weren't (shouldn't have been?) third world junk
> either. "Bonney Forge". Very
> disappointing.
>
> And unions - junk in all grades
> and classes. A "good" 3000# forged steel union -
> it shouldn't take me (250 lbs) and my son the 270
> lb karate instructor standing on each side of a
> 2" union with both of us on the same 24" and 18"
> pipe wrenches just "givin' 'er" to make these
> things stop dripping.
>
> I'm tired of junk.
> Especially when I spend the extra money to buy
> grades of material that exceed the code
> requirements for the job, so I WON'T HAVE
> PROBLEMS!
>
> Thanks - I needed to say that.
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Thread leaks
Have used a product called expando. It is a powder and mixed with oil or water. Aply to threads let set and it swells to fillin bad or lose joints. Don't have to over titen. Worked very well on glycol. Have not seen it around for a while. John0 -
I've seen a product like that.
> I have lately used a type of wicking that looks
> like dental floss. You just wind it on and go. Of
> course I couldn't bring myself to trust it all by
> itself yet, so I've been putting teflon paste on
> over it and so far it has cured the occasional
> problem. If it will hold 30 PSI of air, it will
> hold water too. It's a little bit on the ugly
> side, as some of it will get pushed out as you
> tighten it, but it sure looks better than a drip,
> and it's much more user friendly and quicker than
> teflon tape. Kevin
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 270&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,
> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A
> Contractor"_/A_
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I've seen a product like that
and I almost bought it but it was only rated for lower temps than you see in heating (possibly 150 or 180F). Be careful.0 -
I recently bought expando at Lincoln Winnelson
But I had to order it. I haven't used it much as you have to mix it up with water and then let it dry. You can accelerate the drying with your torch, but if you overdo it, the water will steam up and it won't work. It's supposed to expand like you said and really work well.Kevin
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Sealent
This year I replaced a lot of my radiator valves and had trouble with leaks. After trying tapes and different dopes and tightening fittings till they almost broke I started using a product called "Permatex" its a non hardening gasket material widely used in automotive applications. It has excellant chemical resistance as well thermal properties. Steam pipe and other applications are called out on the uses listed on the packaging. I have never had a leak using it and dont seam to have to overtighten the fittings either0 -
Pipe Dope
I'm suprised nobody has said anything about GOOD OLD PERMATEX,The Black Death of thread sealant,don't youse guys remember when you opened the can it jumps out on your hand.Quick-wik and "BLACK DEATH"will seal all threads!!!!0 -
temperature rating
Make sure you check the can for a temperature rating. Some pipe dopes are only rated up to 125 degrees. We used to have problems , with threaded joints that were air tested at well over 1 1/2 times operating pressure , never leaked after months of being in service , then began leaking after cooling down & being reheated . We switched to a higher temperature rated pipe dope , I think it is called True Blue ( Megalok ????) and have not had these problems since0 -
On the next try
coat the inner threads with some sealant also . I started doing it a few years back and havent had a thread leak since . We use Teflon on the nipples and good old Rectorseal number 5 for a sealant . Love the mustard .0 -
leaky joints
I used loctite # 5 on a German indirect that I had tried everything and about the time the tank got full it would start to drip. It worked with just the thread or string or whatever. Jerry0 -
Hey Dan, is that Permatex RTV
Silicone? I have used that myself and am a firm believer in it no matter how unorthodox it may seem, and the best stuff is rated to 600 degrees I think. Comes in several of your favorite colors including black and clear and also it is very easy to break apart and remove from threads if need be with a wire brush. If I was a betting man, I'd bet it would still seal even if you only tightened it up by hand!
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Sealing threads
For years nows I and most other Heating & Plumbers guys have used Hemp. Guess it must be the same stuff as Jack and Kevin call wicking, Wind it on (in the direction of the thread)and then put a bit of plumbers paste on the top to hold in place and screw it together, As they said it swells with the water. Don't use on Gas as Gas is a dry product. I've seen it seal damaged threads like when the dies tears a thread off no sweat.
You can still get Expando but very hard to undo yrs later, also no good if you are doing several joints and one of the first joins moves while you are doing the last one up as you can end up chasing your tail, Its only good were the joint is complety undisturbed and no good if there is vibration.0 -
Permatex
Kevin:
The Permatex product, do you use the pipe joint compound or the gasket sealer?
Thanks,
Neil
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cast iron pipe not
very impressive treatise,Tony. bonney forge gone sour ?? how sad. beyers stopped making wrought iron pipe ??0 -
what is the leaking pressure...
i am assuming that your threads are good (male and female), and you are applying reasonable tourque - but remember to compensate for the diffferent expansion rates - if you happen to have a heat gun, use it, even a reg blow drier will get you to 140
if you threads are damaged then you can try lots of tefflon tape - but put soap on the female threads before installing so that it screws on compressing the tefflon instead of the damaged ripping up the tefflon
if you use "permatex" let it set the recomemded time before testing
you might want to do away with the exisiting config
and try a flange and flange ball valve, this will alow you to tighten each side corectly and indipendantly, and put the whole show together with the gasket and flange-bolts, this is a lot more forgiving and servicalble layout
and if the watts is brass then you could put a brass nipple into it and put the ballvalve on it so you at least keep all the brass and all the cast parts together
- a 1-1/4 flange ballvalve is apx 25-30$ retail - and then you still need the other flange - but they sold as a pair apx 16-20 retail - so it's not exactly a cheap solution0 -
expando
use expando pipe cement.let dry over night and guarantee no leaks. We use it on leaks that we can not fix after using dope with tape etc. the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
Neil, that's Automotive
RTV (Room Temperature Vucanizing) silicone. Permatex is a major brand. Otherwise called gasket sealer, but used many times without the gasket. I fought a leak that I had used everything on and had it TIGHT. Then I thought about how for years I had been using RTV silicone on pipe fittings on engines where the heater hoses etc.. attach to the block. NEVER a leak, and it doesn't depend on getting it gut-busting tight or needing 3 layers of various products. Just one coat of CHEAP ($5 per tube) easy to use, easy to remove silicone. Engines run at more extreme conditions than the hydronic systems and silicone is all they need. The only thing it won't hold is gasoline, which turns it into jelly. Try it on all your threaded connections. The black is rated to 600 degrees I think. I don't have the experience of many here, but I do have probably 25 years of experience with RTV silicone in various applications and it WORKS. Kevin0 -
Industrial Blue Magic
and a wrap of teflon tape to make it look clean on 1/2',...
Way i think is,'if it's good enough for nuclear power plants its good enough for me.'0 -
Was this valve dropped???
at some point? Maybe not you,but somewhere along the distribution chain. Out of roundness can drive a person bonkers. As far as pipe dope is concerned,Rectorseal #5 is
my fav, and Permatex Black gasket maker is awesome. I used it on the thermostat housing on my '72 Olds Cutlass with no leaks. The geezers among us will remember the all-time best pipe dope ever made-John Sunshine. It was good because it had lead in it!!0 -
Sealing valve(s)
One point that is very important with any valve is that
'Don't swing on the valve end without a thread inside it'
I've seen several valves ruined especially ball valves by been swung on at the opposite end were there is no pipe thread inside to stop the stillsons making the brass distort and go oval. If you can screw the pipe into the valve not the valve onto the pipe, I know it's not always possible but if you can do that.
Another trick is to check if there is a sharp thread in the start of the thread this will scrape any thing that put on to seal the thread as it is screwed in, if there is blunten it with a file.
Some brass valve are made of cheap brass and flare out especially if too much hemp or tape are put on the pipe thread.0 -
Kevin
I saw in the local Pep Boys all the Permatex products, but am confuse if to use the gasket maker or gasket sealer?
Neil0 -
Dan
> This year I replaced a lot of my radiator valves
> and had trouble with leaks. After trying tapes
> and different dopes and tightening fittings till
> they almost broke I started using a product
> called "Permatex" its a non hardening gasket
> material widely used in automotive applications.
> It has excellant chemical resistance as well
> thermal properties. Steam pipe and other
> applications are called out on the uses listed on
> the packaging. I have never had a leak using it
> and dont seam to have to overtighten the fittings
> either
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We use the same exact method, Ron.
Teflon (can't get the good stuff anymore), and a coat of Rectorseal #5 for water.
We keep Permatex in the truck, as well as some Leak Lock.
Whoever said that Permatex jumps out of the can and on to your hand, was not kidding.
We do use Rectorseal #2 for oil tank fill and vent.
Leak Lock for threads on oil lines (not flares)
And, for steam boilers only..... Pro Dope. I love the smell. Reminds me of doing a boiler with my Grandfather. You remember... When we used to throw the raw asbestos up in the air and pretend it was snowing?0 -
Temp Rating
I noticed the Rectoseal #5 was rated for 125*F, do you guys still use this for hot water boiler systems?
Neil0 -
time warp
Boy did this thread take a wild time warp trip!
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Phil
> Boy did this thread take a wild time warp
> trip!
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Phil
I was the culprit to raise the dead here Phil
Is that Patchogue on LI?
Neil (Bellmore)0 -
Leaks
I had the same problem until fellow Wallies turned me on to "Lamp Wick". It's the same stuff that Jack and Kevin spoke of. It's a thin cotton string that you lay into the threads. It comes in a multi strand ball. Use only single strands. I use a wrap of teflon over to hold it. It works wonderful. It is available at plumbing suppliers. Otherwise go to a hardware store or use kite string. Thank The Wall for a practical and effective solution. A suggestion is to be sure to always have a nipple in the open end of brass or copper threaded fittings to be sure you don't crush the open end.0 -
Never looked at the label, never had a leak with it. Even on stuff that went WAY over temp.
Maybe that limit is "solvent related" and the limit isn't for after it dries?0 -
our local supply houses have single strand "lampwick". Actually, we call it "strandwick".0 -
Threader
It sound like I would be looking at my pipe dies.0
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