Vitodens 200

GW · January 2003

The boiler is sensitive to high flow rates, the HX life can be comprimised if the specified flow rates are exceeded. Unless you have a sonic flow meter, one may never truly know the flow in the heating loop. Oh, one can guess, but truly know? Humm. If you have a low head system, the internal pump will do a superb job. Its maximum GPM is 6.16 at no head pressure.

If you have several hundred feet of pex to push through, the factory circ may or may not cut it, you better add up the longest run to find the highest head, and trace back to see your GPM. It may be impossible to utilize the boilers output without the llh and additional circ(s). This is were the low loss header comes in, you can install a system circ to get the gpm and head requirments for the system- thus leaving the boiler flow issues alone. Yes, the LLH is basically a P/S.

If you're going to do radiant, you can take the low temp system AND the high temp system off the one LLH.

Hope this helps,

Gary

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Dana Zaichkin_2 · January 2003

Thumbing through the tech manual

Has anyone had much experience with the combi unit w/ the flat plate Hx for DHW? Looks attractive but doesnt appear to have the output for more than one draw at a time - any thoughts?

Also, the manual focuses most on the mixing valve application for lower temp zones - do you know if the control board supports plug-n-play injection as well?

Thanks & Best Regards

DZ

ScottMP · January 2003

Dana

I dont have the answer to your plug and play question, but I will say that I attended a seminar last night and was VERY impressed with this unit.

Once again Viessmann has shown itself to be the top of the hill with it quality contruction. The heat exchanger on this unit is very much the same design as our munckin friend except that it is four or five times as thick. The stainless steel heat exchanger coil is a solid tube ( not individually connected coils ). A small section of the heat exchanger that was passed around weighed more than the entire munchkin HX. Also a internal pump that various its speed according to reset logic is pretty impresive.

Also very interesting is the fact that none of Viessmann's boilers have a higher CO level than 50 ppms. Compared to the ratings Mark Hunt gave for the munchkin thats quite a bit lower. I believe the Vitoden is closer to 6 ppm.

As Steve Ebels stated, add in the features that come as standard equipment on this and the price is resonable.

Scott

I am going to be taking a closer look at this.

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Henry_4 · January 2003

You are correct

the combi is for a single use apartment (think mother in law), not dump (again think mother in law, oops, did I say that). If a more traditional style domestic need is present, do not use the combi, use the standard with an indirect tank, it is all plug and play.

As far as mixing valves go, the vitodens is set up to operate in priority when domestic calls. If the application is all high mass rfh and domestic, a mixing valve is not needed. My personal belief is that the vitodens should not be taken out of priority. Of course if you have high and low temp applicatons running, then yes, you need a three way, and everything is plug and work. All is listed in the manuals that can be found on the web at viessmann-us.com.

Good luck
Henry

Dana Zaichkin · January 2003

Thanks Henry & Scott

Yes, this unit looks nice and the integrated components look better and more cost-comparable all the time. The wall hung is nice for a wide, but shallow alcove install.

Henry, Yes the application I'm considering will have an indirect, one low temp/high mass panel on constant circ, and one baseboard panel on demand/setpoint control. About 40 MBTUH total. I have no problem setting this up with a mix valve for the radiant panel but was just wondering if there was an injection plug&play option with the V-200s control.

Best Regards

DZ

Mike Norgan_2 · January 2003

Vitodens

Dana, I have installed two of these units and they are awesome.Make sure you check your flow rates, on the two smaller units you can go up to 7 gallons a minute and on the two larger units you can go up to 15 gallons a minute before you need to install a low loss header. Also when using a mixing valve always use a three way mixing valve, there is no need to protect the boiler from low return temps.

Mike

LD · January 2003

Vitodens 200 pricing

I'm not a heating contractor, just looking for the best balance of quality and cost for my new home's boiler for hot water and radiant heat.

Can anyone assist me with the following info (ballpark figures are fine since I currently have no idea what the price ranges are):

1. How much is a Vitodens 200 boiler?
2. How much is a Weil-Mclain Ultra boiler?
3. How much is a typical Weil-Mclain boiler in a spec
house?
4. What's the difference between the Vitodens and the
other Viessmann boilers I have seen? Which cost more?

Thanks!

ScottMP · January 2003

As a rule

We do not discuss pricing here on the wall. Contact someone in your area who is listed in the Find a Contractor section of this website.

I believe the main difference with the Vitoden it is a fully condensing, modulating gas valve, wall hung boiler with the highest efficeincy rating of any of their equipment.

Scott

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Mikes mad pipes · January 2003

Vitodens

What material is used to vent these is it S.S. or PVC?

Dana Zaichkin_2 · January 2003

The tech literature

States vent material must be obtained via Viessmann. Appears to be stainless - double wall direct vent material. Lots of good info available for download at the Viessmann-us web site

DZ

LD_2 · January 2003

Vitoden 200

Not even VERY approximate pricing?
I'm not looking for anything close to a quote,
just some information to see if it is even in the
ballpark of affordability versus other brands/models.

Basically, are we these Chevrolets, Cadillacs, or Ferraris?

hot_rod · January 2003

Pricing depends on BTUH output.

Since there are five models to choose from, 25MBH input to 191MBH (191,000BTUH) list pricing will range from $4.5K to $6.5K. That includes the Matrix burner and built in control system. That may represent about 10% of your entire project costs by the time you add indirect, tubing & manifolds, zoning, piping, overhead and profit.

hb

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Michael B · January 2003

the venting

is 5 inch or 6 inch (depending on size) pipe in a pipe (sealed combustion). Interior pipe is plastic exterior pipe is metal (not sure of composition). We have sold about a dozen of these boilers so far and contractors are very happy. What I appreciate most about this boiler is the control. The onboard dekamatik menu driven control is a breeze to program. It gives an unbeleivable amount of control to the contractor.

Michael Bleier
Able Distributors
"The Supplier That Works With You"
www.abledistributors.com

Steve Ebels · January 2003

None of the above cars............

Think 500 class Mercedes Benz. There, Now you are in the ballpark.

Again, you have to look at everything that comes standard on the boiler and then add those things to any other boiler to get an apple to apples comparison. There are several features that are not available on any other piece of equipment, at any price.

rich pickering · January 2003

What happens to the AFUE when you use a mixing loop?

hot_rod · January 2003

Depends on the type of mixing.

When using a condensing boiler, the only way you should mix is with a motorized three way. By mixing this way, you are assured of as low of return water temperature as possible. The issue with VSI, in this application, is return water temperatures are raised, thus lowering the efficiency (AFUE) of the boiler. Condensing boilers need low return water temps to make them worth the additional initial expense. Some forethought must be given to the control system being utilized as to whether it will help or hinder boiler performance.

hb

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hot_rod · January 2003

Can it be

vented with regular PVC, as the Munchkin and other condensors? I looked at trying a Rinnai once (dhw plumbing application) and 20 feet of special vent and 3 fittings was close to $600.00 wholesale! It was mandatory you use their special co-axial pipe.

This could add to the cost if the boiler was not able to be direct vented.

hot rod

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Michael B · January 2003

HR

the venting is the issue. As you probably already know you must use V's venting material. A "basic" vent kit from Viessmann (about 8 ft. of pipe, elbow, bird cage, etc) runs $400.00 list. This is not cheap so the boiler must fit not only the application needed but the space as well.

Michael Bleier
Able Distributors
www.abledistributors.com
"The Supplier Who Works With You"

Dana Zaichkin_2 · January 2003

Heatboy

Thanks for clarifying the VSI vs mix question for the Vitodens. It seems like the low loss header would inherently increase return temps - sort of a pseudo primary/secondary configuration - maybe I just don't understand it's function well yet. Im wondering if there is a minimum system flow required when a LLH is used?

Best Regards

DZ

heatboy · January 2003

LLH

Dana,

The LLH is more for maximum flow protection than minimum, I believe. While the Vitodens is a great boiler, it shares some of the flow rate concerns of all smaller boilers. It would seem to me, that the LLH could raise the return temperature to the boiler if flows out in the system are small, as in multi-zone systems at times. But with the sensor located in the LLH, it will roll back input to compensate and keep the water temps back to the HX as low as possible. I still think it is imperative to match the boiler to the type of heating system you are using. It makes little sense to use a condensing boiler, with it's complexities and added costs, on a system that needs high temps to operate, e.g., fan coils, replacement for an older baseboard sytem that was sized for 180°. If someone from Viessmann is looking in, please let me know if I am incorrect. It's still new to me, also.

Warm Regards,

heatboy

climatecadvanced.com

"Expert in Silent Warmth"

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Henry_4 · January 2003

In the 2 vitodens installation

> Dana,

>

> The LLH is more for maximum flow

> protection than minimum, I believe. While the

> Vitodens is a great boiler, it shares some of the

> flow rate concerns of all smaller boilers. It

> would seem to me, that the LLH could raise the

> return temperature to the boiler if flows out in

> the system are small, as in multi-zone systems at

> times. But with the sensor located in the LLH,

> it will roll back input to compensate and keep

> the water temps back to the HX as low as

> possible. I still think it is imperative to

> match the boiler to the type of heating system

> you are using. It makes little sense to use a

> condensing boiler, with it's complexities and

> added costs, on a system that needs high temps to

> operate, e.g., fan coils, replacement for an

> older baseboard sytem that was sized for 180°.

> If someone from Viessmann is looking in, please

> let me know if I am incorrect. It's still new to

> me, also.

>

> Warm

> Regards,

>

> heatboy

>

> climatecadvanced.com

> "Expert in Silent Warmth"

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 103&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_

Henry

Henry_4 · January 2003

Low loss header

> Dana,

>

> The LLH is more for maximum flow

> protection than minimum, I believe. While the

> Vitodens is a great boiler, it shares some of the

> flow rate concerns of all smaller boilers. It

> would seem to me, that the LLH could raise the

> return temperature to the boiler if flows out in

> the system are small, as in multi-zone systems at

> times. But with the sensor located in the LLH,

> it will roll back input to compensate and keep

> the water temps back to the HX as low as

> possible. I still think it is imperative to

> match the boiler to the type of heating system

> you are using. It makes little sense to use a

> condensing boiler, with it's complexities and

> added costs, on a system that needs high temps to

> operate, e.g., fan coils, replacement for an

> older baseboard sytem that was sized for 180°.

> If someone from Viessmann is looking in, please

> let me know if I am incorrect. It's still new to

> me, also.

>

> Warm

> Regards,

>

> heatboy

>

> climatecadvanced.com

> "Expert in Silent Warmth"

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 103&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_

Henry_4 · January 2003

just becasue the system

is designed for 180, the vitodens is still and excellent option if you practice shoulder loading. Basically, in Chicago, design conditions are -6 (ASHRAE), if one practices continuous circulation, which Viessmann preaches, and modulates output based upon outdoor temp, then even if design calls for 180, for almost 80% of the season, the system will still condense. In the string "2 vitodens installatin", I posted a detailed piece and diagram on the operation and math of the low loss header, take a look and see if that explains the concept a little better.

If you ask me, moduating temperature and dynamic loading is the greatest benefit of using a boiler, next to the flexibility provided by hot water utilization. With regards to the questions above on how much is a vitodens, since this is already built into the Viessmann logic, it would seem to me that the Vitodens becomes a very affordable option. Compound this with the ability to add in a threee way mixing valve and now I can independently modulate two temperatures and still do domestic on demand, the Vitodens is a very cost effective device. I haven't even touched on the efficiency issues of dynamic loading and the elimination of cycling. I will however bet dollars to doughnuts that a 75% boiler that does not cycle is more efficient than a 92% condensor that cycles continuously every 3 to 5 minutes.

My two cents.
Thanks, Henry

joel_14 · January 2003

heat boy

Your correct and not correct at the same time. Yes, your correct you want cold water to keep condensing so on the surface a hydro coil or baseboard at 180 doesn't cut it.
However we've been running our hydro coils from 120-140 for years with no problem an we also reset fin tube baseboard all the time with cold water. Most don't hit 180f till it's zero or bellow. If there is enough baseboard some only hit 160 at 0f. So for most of the time you can keep the temp right down there. of course the best would be a concrete floor at 110f

GW · January 2003

low loss

The boiler is sensitive to high flow rates, the HX life can be comprimised if the specified flow rates are exceeded. Unless you have a sonic flow meter, one may never truly know the flow in the heating loop. Oh, one can guess, but truly know? Humm. If you have a low head system, the internal pump will do a superb job. Its maximum GPM is 6.16 at no head pressure.

If you have several hundred feet of pex to push through, the factory circ may or may not cut it, you better add up the longest run to find the highest head, and trace back to see your GPM. It may be impossible to utilize the boilers output without the llh and additional circ(s). This is were the low loss header comes in, you can install a system circ to get the gpm and head requirments for the system- thus leaving the boiler flow issues alone. Yes, the LLH is basically a P/S.

If you're going to do radiant, you can take the low temp system AND the high temp system off the one LLH.

Hope this helps,

Gary

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GW · January 2003

sorry-nm

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GW · January 2003

Big Henry

I met you in Canada a few years ago. Keep up the good work

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Henry_4 · January 2003

Thanks, Gary

It is easy to do well when surrounded by sharp people.

Henry

Dana Zaichkin_2 · January 2003

I'm Impressed

Thanks for the ongoing education!

Best Regards

DZ

Vitodens 200

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