Heating Install

jon

We are about to have some heating repairs done (gas, hot
water baseboard system) after a complicated process, but there remains 2 matters that I don't quite agree with. Many improvements will be made after a thorough energy audit was performed and recommendations were made by an independent source.
     1. We have 7 heating zones. Energy auditor
recommended installing a "hydro panel with boiler energy
and thermal controls to help balance the system." He said
our boiler supplies heat without regulating. When heat is
needed, the boiler "thrusts heat at full blast" but if we
installed a hydro panel, it would act as a throttler/transmission sending varied amounts of heat to each zone as needed. We have decided not to install the hydro panel because of cost, but have gotten the impression from others that putting circulator pumps on each of the zones and removing the zone valves would act in the same manner (regulate and increase flow) as what the auditor had in mind. My concern with the installer is that he believes his 3 circulator pumps (not sure where they'll be installed) and some re-piping is what is needed.  He thinks that it is unwise to hang 7 or 8 heavy (7.5 lbs each) pumps that use more electricity, etc. when we have perfectly good working valves.  We are able to get these circulatior pumps for free (because of a personal connection) and then must pay for installation.  The Installer feels that for the design of the system we are better off with valves and not pumps.  Should I be concerned by his lack of enthusiam/ or perhaps willingness to install pumps or is he right on with his thinking in suggesting that we keep the valves?

     2. Audit report indicated we should have a LWCO (low
water cut off) installed to protect boiler.  Installer is
aware that it's code for new homes and will do it for our
"piece of mind”. However, he believes it is unnecessary
because the LWCO will be installed so close to the burner
that by the time it shuts off the water, we would have had
no heat for a very long time, and we would know that
something was not functioning correctly.  He said that even
if we went on vacation that it would be very long before
zero water was in system.  I know I can have it installed
for a reasonable cost, but should I be concerned that he is
not pushing the matter or doesn't even think we need it?
He has been in the field for over 30 years and may just be
very realistic as he has never seen a LWCO-related problem in a gas, hot water baseboard system.  He said if it were steam, that may be a different matter.
 
Also, for cost sake, he is also suggesting that we pipe and prepare system for indirect water heater but hold off on install until existing 11 year old DWH starts to leak. Is this also a good suggestion, or are the benefits so great with an indirect water heater that we ought to come up with the money and do the work now?

I know it helps to have more details but I hope you can
help with what I have provided.

By the way, for those of you that share your expertise with the public, as a homeowner, I thank you.

Steve Ebels

Same old answer..It depends on........

#1. i think what he is describing is an outdoor reset device of some kind. I don't know what he means by the term "thrusts heat at full blast"????!!!?? If he is indeed refering to a reset control that changes your water temp as the outdoor temp goes up and down, yes that's a good thing. Provided that your boiler and/or piping system is designed to accomodate the lower water temps coming back to the boiler, that is. Pretty much all commonly seen residential boilers fire at one firing rate, High. The beauty of a boiler is that you can "store" this excess heat in the water and then deliver it out to your zones. A reset control works by changing the water temp to match the actual heat load of your home. The warmer it is outside, the cooler it runs the water. Like cruise control on your car, it puts out just enough btu's to keep your house warm. This definitely will save energy costs for you. It also makes for longer pump run times which, A. gives you more even heat and B. uses more electricity especially if you're zoning your system with pumps. Seven of 'em running contiuously will be noticable on your electric bill. Which brings us to.........

2. Pumps vs. zone valves or A Debate that will last forever......

In a nutshell a pump system has the following advantages.
If one fails the others will still be able to provide heat for the house.

Adequate flow is not a problem since each zone has its own circulator.

Some feel that a pump is more reliable than the zone valves we get today.

Zone valves have the following advantages

One pump runs the entire home using less electricity than an individual pump on each zone. Also, having the pump run more continuously is better for it than off and on.

If he's concerned about the weight of the near boiler piping he should be able to design and install some type of support system for it. That's kind of a no-brainer


An LWCO is mandatory in my humble opinion

Think ahead for the indirect, DEFINITELY. Do it right now if you can afford it. It'll heat water for about half the cost of an electric.

JMHO

jon

i don't know what a hydro panel is. i have come to learn what an outdoor reset control is and i do not think that is what he had in mind from the energy audit when he suggested a hydro panel. He described that our boiler supplies heat without regulating. When heat is needed in any one zone the boiler comes on and provides heat without realing that that zone may only need a small percentage of heat and that a hydro panel would act as a throttler or transmission letting one zone have say X% and another zone have say Y%. It would help with balancing the system, as we have 7 zones of heating. Sorry I can't be more clear. But you are right SE---he described it as our boiler firing at one firing rate, High.

Installer also does not think we need an Outdoor Reset Control, but he will be applying primary and secondary injection plumbing principles when he does his install.

Steve Ebels

I don't know why

He would be using pri/sec piping unless he is going to use reset. Do you have any radiant zones that require lower water temp? What is the btu of your boiler and what is the heat loss of your home?

jg2700

heat

first of all low water cut offs shot the boiler off if water level is below the control it is for safety reasons in my area they are code and my opinion should be done.as for the zones if you want circulators you also have to install flo valves with them you can do this you also can do zone valves too.either way is ok but remember this if you have zone valves and the circulator craps out the whole area that that circulator and zone valves control will be without heat. as for seperate circulators only one zone would be out. get more than one estimate if you dont feel comfortable with the first. jg

jon

I found what energy auditor meant when he referred to installing a hydropanel. Argo Industries makes it. And here is what I found on its website. Overview:
The most advanced and complete line of multiple zoning relays available. These control panels will operate multiple thermostat and circulator installations from 3 to 6 zones - and can be expanded to 10 zones using add-on modules. When used with indirect water heaters such as Boiler Mate, Phase 3, Mega-Stor, Super Stor, etc..., the ARM series of controls will simplify wiring and often allow the use of smaller boilers.

The ARM series of circulator relays are controlled by low voltage thermostats or any other low voltage controllers having an SPST switching action. The relays provide intermediate switching to permit one, two, three or up to ten separate line voltage loads (circulators).

Advanced circuit design will operate with most digital / programmable thermostats.

The isolated end switch relay (terminals XX) has a full 10 amp contact rating.

When a zone calls for heat (TT terminals are connected), the following operation sequence occurs:

Isolated switch relay closes.
XX switch is closed.
XX indicator light turns on.
Control relay closes (ZC and ZR connection required either by factory installed jumper or through aquastat).
ZC/ZR indicator light turns on.
Zone circulator will start.
If Priority Switch is in ON position:
Zone 1 becomes priority zone.
Circulators for Zones 2,3,4, and any zone modules will not operate with Zone 1 (Priority) circulator is actuated.



SE, As far as your followup questions:
going to have radiant heat installed in section of first floor through unfinished basement.--is that maybe why he'd do pri/sec without reset?

boiler output capacity 120,000 btu and gross input of 150,000 btu

heating loss of the home is 80,000 at 0 degree outdoor air temp

jim f

hanging pumps??

in your response to hanging 7-8 pumps------you dont hang them, you could support them. also a concern of electicity, your basic taco 007 circulator draws .7 amps. if your worried about saving money your better off shuting some unused light fixtures off. indirect is definitly a nice advantage. why wait till your old water heater floods your house. if you have any radiation below your boiler you need to put in a low water cutoff. all this is just my honest opinion. you could make your heating system a cadiliac, depends on how much money you want to spend!!
jim f. milford, ct.