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The State of the Art in Boiler Technology.....(hb)

bruce pirger
bruce pirger Member Posts: 111
in THE MAIN WALL
So just how much of a Lexus are these boilers anyway? Are we talking $5K for the modulating 12K-85K BTU model? So that's about twice an "American" 85K boiler?

Comments

  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    The Vitodens.

    You know what the greatest thing about radiant floor heating is? No, it’s not comfort, although, we sell it primarily on that aspect. It’s the advances in boiler/burner designs that have resulted from the various issues concerning radiant and the low water temperatures involved.

    While there are several condensing boilers on the market now, and certainly more to come, the Vitodens is what I believe to be the ultimate statement in boiler efficincies at the present time. I mean no disrespect to the MZ or the Munchkin, but having had the opportunity to disassembly, examine and witness the performance of these three units, I have to hop on the Vitodens bandwagon. Granted, I am biased towards Viessmann and have used them as my primary system for a few years now. I have been waiting for 4 years for the Vitodens to arrive here from the time I first saw it the Viessmann plant in Allendorf. It has been worth the wait, IMO.

    It has moved to the front of the line as far as equipment I offer. I see a huge future for this boiler. 94% AFUE, constructed of bulletproof 316Ti stainless steel. The Matrix burner pictured below fully modulates from 6 KW (20.5K BTUH) to 24 KW (82K BTUH) depending upon loads. Now, if I can figure out how to tie in those beautiful ZCPs. Are ya’ listening Mr. Bean…………………

    This has not been a paid commercial ;-) It’s just from a guy who is trying to stay ahead of the pack.

    PS. I guess I will have to re-write what I said in this article back in 1997. http://climatecadvanced.com/news/dmb/dmb.html

    Warm Regards,

    heatboy

    climatecadvanced.com

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

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  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
    Couldn't agree more

    We have 2 installed and one more on the way. The control built into the boiler will do almost anything you want right out of the box. And face it, control is where it's at. They are silent. Very clean burning. Self adjusting vent, pressure-wise, variable speed pump on the two small sizes. The Vitodens is just about all you could ever want in a boiler. Once you've installed one of these and watched it work....... There isn't anything else in the same league.
  • Steve Minnich_1
    Steve Minnich_1 Member Posts: 127
    Jeffrey

    What about technical support on these puppies? or access to replacement parts? is a good service tech going to be able to handle these if called upon? is it over complicated in terms of what it is trying to achieve?(Eff., low temp. del., and safe low temp. return?

    Not all of us can drive $100,000 cars. but we still get to where we need to go. Don't misunderstand me, I'm a huge fan of high guality stuff right down to the type of ball valves and clamps I use.

    I may wait this one out until the competition stiffens up and forces the high tech. equip. down to reasonable prices.
    History has dictated that it happens in almost every market.

    Respectfully, Steve Minnich

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
  • RB_2
    RB_2 Member Posts: 272
    I'm all ears when it comes to business...

    ...and thumbs when it comes to tying flies.

    You'll have an opportunity at an upcoming ProPartner meeting to beat us into submission...

    We're not worthy....we're not worthy....

    Thanks HB

    RB
  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424
    I agree w/ Vitodens comments.....


    and will be installing one this month some time.
    As far as waiting until the prices come down....they won't, because they don't compare with the regular boilers.
    Just like the $100K cars don't compare with the $25K cars, or the $70-80/hr plumbers don't compare with the ?/hr plumbers.
    And your right, not everyone drives a $100K car.
    If these follow the trend they will not only not go down in price, but go up.
    Steve
  • John_21
    John_21 Member Posts: 34
    Vitoden 200

    Have installed 3 from smallest to largest and am impressed. Have 6 more to install. There is a learning curve with them but support from Rhode Island has been very good to exceptional! Easy to sell. John
  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
    Tinman

    Viessmann's 24 hr. support is a beautiful thing. That's right 24 hr. There is a learning curve but it's mainly just catching on to European hydronics and the way they do things over there.

    Any return temp is safe. From what I've conversed with guys regarding Viessmann parts.......There's hardly a need to carry any. I talked to 2 different guys at the Gathering who said their Viessmann parts kit remains unused after selling the product for years.
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    All good questions.

    I have always received an answer to my questions, Steve. Believe me, a dim bulb like me has a lot of questions that need to be answered! This equipment is completely different from anything you and I have worked on in the past, but we shouldn't be afraid of it. One thing about Viessmann I can attest to, is the fact that any equipment we get has been thoroughly tested before it is released. In our case, it's even better since the equipment has been in use in Europe for a few years before it crosses the pond. The bugs have been pretty much work out. That's not saying there aren't occasional issues. Viessmann doesn't hide from any issues that arise and will actually inform the trade, send out the new parts AND pay labor charges if there are defects.

    I'm not sure what the $100 K auto analogy has do do with heating. Automobiles cost you money from day one with depreciation while a quality, efficient heating system will save you money and pay for itself over the years. I wish my trucks would do that!

    Don't wait for prices to come down because you will be standing on the outside for a long time ;-)

    The Vitodens is not for everyone. Unless your heating system is as important as any other component of your home, you won't see the value. I owe my client the opportunity to have the ultimate in heating technology. But remember, I offer water heaters also!

    Warm Regards,

    heatboy

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

    610.250.9885

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

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  • Steve Minnich_1
    Steve Minnich_1 Member Posts: 127
    Ok- I'm kind of convinced

    The first Vitodens or Viessmann I install will probably be at my house. This way I can tinker and toy with it all I want--eases the learning curve.

    Thanks for the feedback.

    I still feel the car analogy holds true aside from the depreciation. And the basics of economic supply and demand will bring prices down--eventually.

    Respectfully, Steve Minnich

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,184
    All Stainless?

    Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that although the heat exchanger on the Vitodens is stainless, the external header for this boiler is aluminum.



    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • larry
    larry Member Posts: 91
    price doesn't always go down dramatically...

    Maybe Viessmann is defining a new high-end ultra-high efficiency market segment with this boiler. If they are sucessful doing so, you may find more competition from other manufacturers wanting to play in a higher profit margin space. The idea is to keep prices on the high side for everyone.

    The auto analogy would be the value luxury segment where Acura came in, and were followed by Lexus and Infinity. In some sense the competition keeps prices down, but it hasn't made a Lexus the same price as a Kia.
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    To my knowledge.........

    there is zero amount of aluminum anywhere on this boiler, except for the burner housing. The heat exchanger, all flue gas surfaces and the fire side of the burner are all stainless. All water connections are brass/copper. If it had aluminum (there is a model in Europe that is)I would be very hesitant in selling it due to the reaction between the water/aluminum/flue gases.

    Warm Regards,

    heatboy

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

    610.250.9885

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    Mr. Radiation Again

    If that design doesn't MAXIMIZE the radiant transfer from the burner to the HX I don't know what does!

    I can just see it glowing...

    Looks quite similar to a kerosene heater I have--the one that radiates especially well compared to the other two.
  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
    That's exactly right

    It's a radiant burner. There is little to no visible flame, hence, no worries about flame impingment on the HX. It glows orange when in operation. Viessmann says the air velocity throught the radial HX is in excess of 45 MPH. Yes, MILES per hour. Does rather well at getting the condensate out of the way.
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    Now if only

    I can explain how those amazingly distinct "bell curves" on US Capitol iron rads interact not only with their environment but with one another to maximize radiant output.

    Believe that by multiplying angles of direct incidence (especially to vertical room surfaces) while minimizing exposure to other tubes and horizontal room surfaces that it "plays" with the idealized formulas for computing radiation.
  • Howard
    Howard Member Posts: 57
    hyperlink

    or at least cut-and-paste


    http://www.viessmann.ca/Pages/PDF/Documents/5167-472-Vitodens-200-TDM.pdf
  • Michael B
    Michael B Member Posts: 179
    Tinman

    Why you know call? Just give me jingle I have 12 of these babies in McHenry right now. Viessmann has been great about giving "personal" use discounts to guys who install them in their own abode. As to these boilers tying in with Danfoss ZCP's I am jumping all over this bandwagon. I have a job with 2 vitodens, 1 92 gallon Viessmann Indirect and 4 (yes 4) ZCP's for various parts of the house. Mr. Bean please help

    Michael Bleier
    Able Distributors
    "The Supplier Who Works With You"
    www.abledistiributors.com
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    Matrix Burner.

    This is what it looks like when it's running. Very cool! As non-polluting as you can get with fossil fuels. If saving the environment means anything to you, you should be offering this equipment. Thanks to Dale Pickard for sending this picture to me.

    Warm Regards,

    heatboy

    climatecadvanced.com

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    It's

    half a freakin' black body! (Or at least damned close.)

    Why do I imagine that some elements of the HX are set up to capture the gasses being propelled from the "holes" while others "grab" the highest amount of radiation possible?
  • Mark J Strawcutter
    Mark J Strawcutter Member Posts: 625
    Indoors at ISH?

    I seem to remember a segment on This Old House where Trethewey visited ISH europe. This looks like the burner he said was the only one given special permission to be fired up, unvented, indoors at the show.

    Mark
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    That's correct, Mark.

    In Germany, where emissions are as srtict as anywhere in the world, it should tell you something about how clean this burner runs. They also have an oil fired burner called the Rotrix that burns so clean there is virtually no flame to look at. It is the burner they used in the oil fired version of the Vitodens and also the Vitola three pass, which we can't get here. Wait till you see the new Vertomat with the Matrix Burner! Amazing burner technology they have in Europe.

    Warm Regards,

    heatboy

    climatecadvanced.com

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

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  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
    Take the standard

    boiler, I don't care whose or where it's made. Now add an outdoor reset control, an indirect water heater control with pump, fully programmable temp control, a pressure bypass, all your isolation valves, a mixing valve and control if you're using low temp (radiant), and you'll be about up to what the Vitodens come equipped with. You'll still be short the modulating burner, the stainless steel heat exchanger and the variable speed pump though. Consider also that the standard boiler is between 5-10% less efficient.

    The point is when you take the standard boiler and add equipment to do what the Vitodens is capable of right out of the box, you'll find the price to be right in the same ball park. Especially when you figure the labor to install all the other controls on the standard type boiler and the hassle of getting equipment and controls from different manufacturers to operate together smoothly. The Vitodens isn't for everyone or for every type of system. It is however an awesome piece of equipment when used in the right application, probably the best piece for a lot of systems.
  • Bill Barrett
    Bill Barrett Member Posts: 43
    Price

    More than Munchkin I take it? It looks great, very high quality burner, nice craftsmanship.
  • Bill Barrett
    Bill Barrett Member Posts: 43
    Outside air?

    Hey guys did a cursory look at the web sight, everyone must be there, very slow, I don't see outside combustion air?
  • kf_2
    kf_2 Member Posts: 118
    Comb. Air

    It has a concentric vent kit. (pipe in a pipe)


    kf
  • Barbara_2
    Barbara_2 Member Posts: 1
    Shopping for a new boiler

    I have a 15yr. old. Glowcore boiler, 92k btu. Two contractors have told me that this system is bad, that the debris in the Heat exchanger is going to crash the boiler. Just put in a new ignitor and had to zone valves replaced. There's a total of 4 zone valves. Don't really know if they are trying to rip me off, by scaring me into purchasing a new boiler. The information from the several estimates I've received are inconsistent. My home has 2400 sq ft of living area. Here are three of the estimates I've received: 1) Weil-Mclain,model CGS-5, 133k btu, 84% AFUE, cast iron = $4000; 2)Burnham cast iron 204PV, 96kbtu = $3900; Munchkin, stainless steel boiler, 140 BTU, 92% AFUE, $4300.

    1) Since my glowcore is 92k, do I really need more btus. I am in a high altitude, dry climate.

    2) What are the advantages of stainless steel vs. cast iron?

    3) Which is the more reliable boiler. Breakdowns etc.

    I would deeply appreciate any help. It's difficult making this decision on my own and can't help feeling that they will take advantage of my lack of knowledge.

    Thank you!!!!!
  • Michael B
    Michael B Member Posts: 179
    Barbara

    I assume you have read all the "glowing" reviews for the Vitodens listed above. I would think that you would be interested in this vs. any of the other choices listed. You will be receiving a state of the art 94% eff. boiler that will blow your old glow core away.

    Michael
  • EricR_2
    EricR_2 Member Posts: 43
    Boiler choices

    Barbara, you might get more of a response if you start a new thread of your own and restate what you posted here. I assure you the folks here will give you there opinion:)
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    Heat loss

    Barbara,

    Did any of the contractors you mentioned perform a heat loss estimate of your home? If you current boiler kept you warm, it was probably big enough. You failed to mention what type of heating system you have. Radiant? Baseboard or Radiators? Your system operating temperatures would dictate, to me, what style of boiler is best suited for your application, e.g., condensing (Glow Core, Munchkin, Vitodens) or non-condensing ( WM, Burnham). Also, is your domestic hot water generated via the boiler or would you like it to be done that way?

    Did you check the "Find a COntractor" portion of this site?

    Warm Regards,

    heatboy

    climatecadvanced.com

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

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