big box denials

Mason

I thought these guys told us that the deal between themselves and the big box was a no go. It sure looks like one of their boilers to me.........

Mark Hunt

I saw


the same thing yesterday.

Mark H

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Steve Ebels

Look at the bright side guys

It's a lot of exposure for hydronic heating that we as an industry wouldn't get otherwise. After thinking about this situation for a while, it really doesn't bother me. I'm not seeing it as something that is going to wipe me out. Maybe I'm missing something but I think it has more positives for our industry than negatives. In fact if I had the bucks, there is no place I would rather put up a store than right next to a Home Depot or a Lowe's. Marketing is all about exposure of your product, name recognition, brand awareness and trust. I guess if people want to trust HD that's their business. Coming from the hardware home center industry myself I know how HD's pricing works, they have to turn a buck just like any other retail establishment.

Tom Meyer

Big Box Exposure

I guess it will depend on how good their designers and installers are.

We could end up with black eyes if they aren't as good as we hope.

Tom Meyer
Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics
www.precisionhydronics.com

Mark Hunt

I don't care either.


But there are a few suppliers around here that will.

I need to follow some my own advice.

The biggest piece of glass on my truck is the windshield. The smallest is the rear view mirror.
Considering this, I guess that what is in front of me is more important than what is behind me.

Have a GREAT DAY!!!

Mark H

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John R. Hall

No go

Dave:

It is a no-go. I talked with the prez of WM and he said that any marketing of boilers is done by the contractor partners, i.e. Trane guys. There is no stipulation that these guys cannot push their other services through Home Depot. WM boilers are not for sale through the Big Box but can be sold and installed by a Big Box sub-contractor. An end run.

Tom Meyer

Big Box

So Joe Homeowner cannot go into Home Depot and buy just the materials (boiler) and/or spare parts without going through a contractor?

Unknown

I see the packaged Slant Fin

on display in the Home Depot stores around here . Is it just up for display also , or can anyone go in and buy one ?

Mark Hunt

No


and they can't do that with Trane furnaces either.

WM boilers would never be sold directly to a homeowner.

HD is a lead generator for contractors that are involved with the program. The contractor would receive the customer info and schedule an appointment. IF the customer buys, the contractor would provide the materials as he/she would normally do.

My suppliers are concerned because they believe that The Wallwork Group would be the WM vendor as they are currently the source locally for Trane equipment.

So, WM is correct when they say that their products will not be sold at HD.

Mark H

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Steve Ebels

But the question is

Who's black eye is it anyway if they buy something from an HD affiliated contractor? Yours, Mine, the HD contractor< HD's? If someone buys a boiler or a furnace through someone they met or contacted through HD and it turns to junk how does that effect me and my business.

THE CONSUMER HAS TO REALIZE THAT BUYING HEATING EQUIPMENT IS NOT THE SAME AS BUYING A REFRIGERATOR OR A 2X4 OR A DOZEN EGGS!!!!!!!! THEY ARE NOT BUYING A COMMODITY!!!!!!!

IT'S THE INSTALLATION THAT MAKES A GOOD SYSTEM OR A POOR SYSTEM.

Or as one of my customers put it. "Gee, it's all about how it's installed isn't it!!"

Tom Meyer

How it affects our business...

Sure it's going to be Home Depot and their contractor's headache.

Absolutely, it's the installation. Our CRAFTSMANSHIP developed over years of experience and training is why people pay us instead of doing it themselves.

The quote "You're paying me for what I know, not necessarily just what I do." comes to mind.

How it affects our business...

Let's face it. To many builders and architects, hydronics (radiant heat) is a "black box". They aren't convinced it's worth the extra money. We are because we know. We have experience with it.

When a person doesn't have that experience, they go based on what they are told. (Read "word of mouth")

This is where we can get hurt. All of us. If people spread the word it was the "commodity" that's no good, and not the "installation", then hydronics as a whole gets hurt.

Home Depot pushing hydronics is a good thing. It gets the concept of hydronics out there in front of the consumer. Exposure is great, unless it's negative exposure.

I just pray they got (and keep) quality people to lead the way.

cruizer

Looking at the ad.....

I notice anything that WOULD say Weil-McLain Gold on it (the nameplates) are blacked out. It's obvious that they are hiding the name on the boiler because HD knows that WM does NOT want to be affiliated with them.

Paul Rohrs_2

John Hall

So after extensive negotiations with HD, WM decides to pull back, (Probably from the heat they were getting) saying "at this time, we are ending negotiations" blah blah blah. I have all of the letter WM sent to distributors verifying the same thing.

The not so stunning revelation is that WM boilers are available thru HD. Channeled through Trane.

As a wholesaler, I am going to pick an average Joe Consumer off the street and negotiate with him for awhile, then call it off, but the next day, he is buying my product bootlegged through "distribution".(Anyone with vital signs is a candidate) No recourse, no returns, no hassles since Joe Consumer is on his own. Are you really going to accept this answer as gospel that WM isn't really behind this? C'mon, Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

PR

John R. Hall

Paul

Nothing is ever etched in stone. There are examples of Big Box managers offering to sell Janitrol equipment to customers of their Trane contractors. But will WM knowingly sell any boilers to homeowners via the Big Box? No way -- they have their own dealers and distributors to answer to. BTW, negotiations never got "extensive."

heatboy

Let's put a positive spin on this.

If HD is going to advertise hydronics, we all gain with the exposure. Granted, it's up to us as individuals to show the consumer the value in hiring us, but to have someone else put the thought in their head is OK with me.

Warm Regards,

heatboy

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

610.250.9885

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Tom Meyer

Yup.

Free positive advertising is always a good thing.

A marketing professor once said something about "product identification..."


Tom Meyer
Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics
www.precisionhydronics.com

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Ad seems VERY positive

Hard for me to imagine any problem unless you're afraid you can't compete with the installers/designers working with Home Depot.

Seems to me that any competitive edge they might gain by leads would be eaten up by the fees they are certain to pay in return...

Seems to me that Home Depot is assuming a lot of the risk by mainly pushing the IDEA of hydronics.

As for how Weil-McLain fits into the picture I suspect that they haven't given Home Depot any particularly "sweet" deal with pricing any more than anyone with the potential to sell so many boilers. The fact that they are not mentioned (even blotted out) seems to support this.

Steve Ebels

I think

That both WM and HD realize that it's
NOT a commodity and can't be sold to Joe Blow like a box of nails. This is apparent because of the way this is being done at present. As long as the home owner realizes and understands that he's buying the whole installation, not just a boiler/furnace/AC unit etc., then he'll know who to call/blame when it doesn't work. In other words he/she has to know the're buying a system not just a block of iron or steel.

Dave Yates (PAH)

You're not seeing the bigger picture.

So, HD is "giving" away leads for a clean 7.5% of the sale. Pretty slick manuver on their part & you get to cut back on promoting yourself, which simply promotes them as the only game in town since you're dropping your advertising to make up for the 7.5% loss of revenue.

So far so good, eh?

It'll be all cutesy for a while & everyone involved will be playing nice. Right up until the bean counters track enough installations to figure out average costs per type of installation. Once that information is digested, the contractors (who by now have come to rely on HD for the bulk of their boiler installation business) will find the pricing fixed by HD. Take it or leave it boys.

That pattern of behavior has played out all too often.

Think just the contractors will get squeezed? The manufacturer will have come to rely on those train-car loads of shipments too. Guess who's going to dictate what they'll pay? If not, there's always other manufacturers who will gladly jump in.

HD has stockholders, the manufacturer has stockholders & you have a family to feed.

Nener, ever put too many eggs in one basket.





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Mason

Good discussion

Guys, I personally think one of the first things that we need to realize is that their are a few types of consumers out there. The important ones for us are the ones who can distinguish a deal from some trash that is offered for a low price. The only customers that we are really losing to the big box are the ones that were going to price shop us anyhow. I am not afraid of the competition. In fact, BRING IT ON. I would prefer to have everyone see the kind of work we do. I would love for some of those people to see me have a tech rip out some of our work and redo it because a pipe was not straight or level. I can tell you beyond the sahdow of a dobt that a client telling someone about us will make a much stronger and longer impression than someone saying" the big box" guys were here today. I think it works. The carpet cleaners or insurance adjusters will be here tomorrow........

Mike T., Swampeast MO

That \"Wal-Mart\" Business Model

Bites you in the **** every time.

Granted, I'm forever the cynic, and may even seem to be on both side of the fence at times, but somehow such dire predictions regarding something like a boiler seem a bit far-fetched.

Were it really probable I sort of think it would have happened a long time ago--with Sears. In small towns at least, they've been "partnering" for furnaces, water heaters, siding, etc. for decades--most of which found only the "Sears" name emblazoned on the equipment.

Why don't I believe this likely? Human nature again. The people most likely to "go with" Home Depot are likely to be NEW owners of hydronic systems--and mostly just "new" to that person.

While hydronic systems are generally quite reliable--they have problems just like ANY mechanical system. Anyone who has lived with hydronics for any period of time likely already has someone in mind when it comes time for replacement or service--and in many areas at least there isn't much choice.

Now say that you're one of HD's "partners" and get a lead for a boiler replacement that you wind up doing. Whose truck is the customer going to see? Yours. While HD might not like it, whose card are you going to leave? Yours.

If the customer hasn't signed up for a maintenance agreement with HD (you KNOW they'll push them highly by the way) who are they likely to call for service? You.

If you do a good job and the customer is pleased, who are they going to tell their friends about? You. "But, oh, by the way it was through Home Depot--they seem to pick good people."

If this friend needs a boiler who are they likely to call? First their friend to find out WHO actually did it, then you! Why? Again human nature--the desire to cut out the "middle man" (thus maybe saving a buck or two) if at all possible--besides they realize that by going to HD they might not get YOU.

BUT, if you do a bad job who is the customer most likely to blame the most? Home Depot! What are they most likely to tell their friends? DON'T go to Home Depot--the people who do the work for them are lousy!

Of course this isn't the ONLY way it can happen, but I do GUARANTEE it will happen sometimes--likely much of the time.

With something like a boiler, it is YOU that matters--not some impersonal big company logo. It is YOUR personal interaction with the customer and their perceived impression of YOU that they care about.

I venture that nearly the same scenario will play for the manufacturer of the boiler as well--that is if the customer even knows who made it!

Dave_8

I say let them

Do it, I am enclosing a picture of what happens when a home owner cheaps out to the big box boys and their contractors. After doing extensive remodeling to their 100+ year old home these people found that our price on the heating addition was too high and went the big box. After two years of not being able to heat three rooms they came back to us to find out why. We found that the baseboards were added to a monoflow sytem with regular tee's, the pump was undersized and the baseboard was installed as you see in the picture. Our profit on the repair was higher than our profit on the original job would have been!

ed wallace

big box and contractors

got an e-mail from hds expo center asking if i wanted to be listed as a preferred contractor i am so glad i know how to use the delete button enough said

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Terry_4

It is'nt

just WMc either, in our area HD features Burnham apparently for sale to anyone who happens to like blue.