Robbed?

Eric Taylor

The 90 that the snake got stuck on was only about 10' from the cleanout in the basement. The clog was 100' from there. If the snake could have gone around that first 90 then the rest was a straight shot through larger pipe. It was a straight run from the basement to that 90. I just can't imagine getting stuck on one fitting and giving up.

My father in law is rather hard to get along with. It is possible that he just got the plumber a bit hot under the collar and simply got his just desserts, but I wasn't there. I did see the old pipe after they destroyed it, it was clear and considering how old it is, it was in great shape.

Eric Taylor

Drain Fiasco

I think my father-in-law just got robbed by a pro.
The drain in his rental property backed up. They tried chemicals, plunging, etc, but the whole soil stack would fill to the lowest sink, and take ten hours to drain. So they called a plumber to snake the line. Seemed like a good idea.

The house is set back from the road about 135' and is over 100 years old. The sewer pipe exits the house parallel to the street and hangs a 90 before the long run to the street. The "pro" that showed up claimed that he couldn't get the snake around the 90! Isn't that what the snake is designed to do? He was quoted $400 to snake the drain, but when the pro "couldn't" get the snake by the 90 the job turned into $3500 to dig up the 90, remove it, and snake the straight shot to the road. What happened was they dug up the 4" iron pipe that was set in a brick base, smashed it, then proceeded to smash the 6" heavy wall clay pipe that it was joined to, so that they had "room to work". In the process they broke the water main and filled the hole with water. Now the local water company had to show up to turn off the water. The old valve wouldn't seat so they replaced it. When they finally got the snake into the pipe about 110', they hit the clog and the hole drained instantly. Now all that nice heavy pipe that had nothing wrong with it in the first place is green plastic.

He hasn't gotten the bill yet, but I told him to get some legal help.

I know this is a heating site, but I bet you folks know the answer. Don't plumbers snakes go around 90s in 4" iron pipe?

[Deleted User]

depends

main sewer machines snake sewers well. but.. at 135 feet your pushing the limits of the torque the machine can apply to the cable. so to answer your question honestly, maybe it will make the bend, maybe not. ive been stuck in pipes more times than i care to remember. ive never seen a plumbing code that didn't require a cleanout every 100 feet maximum in a sewer...but ive seen alot of houses without them..remember the torque thing...as for pricing, noone here will give you any better answer than depends, also..we dont know the whole story..both sides..

HeavyP

knowledge

Can I ask what is your knowledge in the plumbing field? have you ever snaked main lines before? It is very possible for a cable not to negotiate a 90* turn. If the contractor gave a price and it was okayed, what is the problem? what are you suing for? You had a right to seek other options/opinions from other companies before okaying the work right?Gerry

Aidan (UK)

snakes

I think it would be very optimistic to try to get a snake around a 10' distant 90 degree bend and then down a 100' pipe. I don't do this professionally so I'm open to correction.

I have seen something similar achieved with a pressure jetting hose, but the outlet fitting on the hose propels itself along the pipe dragging the hose. The operator inserted the hose into a small plastic pipe with an elbow on the end. The plastic pipe was inserted into the drain and the elbow aligned with the drain. When the pressure was turned on the hose set off up the main drain. However, only about 10' of pipe was involved and I think this was an experienced operator.

Some of the pressure jetting companies are regular stars in the "Plumbers from Hell" type programmes over here.

It's possible that there's an inspection pit or two along the 135' pipe that have got lost and buried in the last 100 years. If there aren't, maybe you need to get some installed. It's also possible that the blockage was caused by damage to the clay pipes by tree roots or subsidence. If it blocks again, maybe a CCTV survey would be justified.

Eric Taylor

Knowledge

I have limited plumbing knowledge. I worked as a tech for several years installing various industrial systems including 4" threaded iron and larger, welded pipe, but I haven't personally used a large snake. I have seen several long runs snaked by a pro and I have been amazed at how many feet of pipe and fittings those snakes can go around.

I must say again that I wasn't there. I only heard the story after the fact. The customer called three different firms and this was the only one to reply. Being under the gun with drains backed up in an occuppied rental unit didn't leave too many options.

Cosmo

Knowledge

I can understand your concern, but the "I wasn't there part" means a lot to me. How do you know what the situation was? I could be the 90 was not a long sweep. If the snake was a large diameter it may very well not have been able to make the turn. Maybe the 90 broke when the snake wrenched itself in the 90. Maybe, maybe, maybe. There should have been a cleanout access at that 90. Why is the company that provided you with a service responsible for the condition of the plumbing? I bet you were glad to have the drain running again! Nothing wrong with SD-35 pipe, it won't corrode like cast iron, or fall apart like clay and concrete. As long as a proffesional installs it and backfills properly the plastic will last longer than the other stuff. Sorry, but I think suing a man just because it was more expensive than expected is unethical. Why would I or any other professional wan't to run to your home for an emergency call when you will just sue him later. Of course this is assuming your wrong. Pay the man and next time why not rent your own snake machine and try it yourself?:)


Casmo Valavanis
Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
Plumbing Heating Cooling

Online Sheriff \"Murph\"

I AGREE WITH THE CAS MAN

EASY TO CRITICIZE AFTER THE FACT, Theses machines are real b*ll busters, and if the price of the repair was put up front, and the job was done promptly, wheres the problem??sounds like buyers remorse to me.

Dave_8

Very Possible

We do drain machine work about 20+ times a week and it is easy to believe that the machine would not make the 90. Possibly it was corroded or had a slight fracture. Sometimes it takes very little to stop a machine. Just because the old pipe looked good does not mean that all of it was in good shape, just one small bad section will stop cause problems.

John MacGregor_2

Robbed?

Maybe the two contractors that didn't show up already had a bad experience with your father-in-law?

Mad Dog

Hey Eric...relax with the lawyer stuff alright.......

that's what is ruining our country. Now, I wasn't there, but, NO! snakes can't always make it around a 90....for starters, if it is not a 90 degree long SWEEP (as the original installer should have put in, it would be very difficult to negotiate that bend with the proper sized snake...( a smaller snake might make it, but could be coiled up and get stuck). Even if the old timers used a sweep...bro...100 years old!!!!!! Do you know what kind of build up could be in the 90???? Look, I've been on both sides before...do you think the guys did this on purpose??? Don't you think they wanted to get in and out as fast as they could too!!! Put yourselves in their position..Mad Dog

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[Deleted User]

ive been stuck

in a 90 at the base of a stack 18 inches down from the cleanout alot more than just a few times.

Steamhead

I have a similar setup

and had some trouble getting around the 90, but none beyond that. But I later bought an inexpensive metal detector and found the cleanouts that had been buried. They now extend above ground level. No more problems!

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Terry_4

Digging

up the sewer should be a last resort, and i can't imagine doing it without at least attempting to send a camera down the line. almost any cable with a short enough head on it will negotiate even a short turn 4" 90, unless the plug is right there. sorry, but it seems the gun was jumped.

[Deleted User]

i dissagree Terry

the camera is useless unless the line is OPEN. otherwise all it see's is stuff floating in suspension againest a gray/white background.

Gerry Harris

camera

What can you see when your camera is underwater????Gerry

Terry_4

Well....

not always. At any rate it very likely would have shown that the plug was not at the first 90.

jalcoplumb_2

The guy quoted $400.00

to snake and clear the line. I am sure you had the option when his snake hit the 90 to call some one else before he dug up the lawn. You could have got a second opinion at that point. But someone made the decision to continue.

Yes it is very possible that the snake could not make it past the 90.

I would hope a clean out was installed where the pipe was dug up. If repaired properly the new section will outlast the old.

As far as the water line goes, is it the plumbers’ fault that the valve didn’t hold? Some time when you dig you hit stuff. Back in the day, a lot of sewer and water services were installed next to each other. Now they are required to be at least a foot apart.

Did the plumber come right out? What time of day was it? How many other plumbers did he call? Clay pipe will get roots through the joints, was he given the option to replace the line? How old was the line? Does it stop up often?

Now I was not there and it is very possible that this guy was incompetent. Some jobs can go bad if there is a lack of communication between the owner and the contractor.

Just some thoughts,

Joe

PS A camera will not work unless the line is clear. We use them after to evaluate how bad the line is in.

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Tony Conner

I Don't...

... do sewer work, but I've done a lot of repair/modification/installation of buried steam lines. The only thing you can say for sure when the shovel hits the ground is that "you can't say for sure". I have personally encountered old abandoned streetcar tracks, concrete foundations from buildings demolished decades ago (including getting ambushed by an old loading dock...that was swell), every kind of buried utility you can imagine - some dead & abandoned and others still in service. These were "surprises" that didn't show up on any drawings or locate information. This is on top of planning on tying into to a line that, once you've uncovered it, doesn't meet code, or is in far worse shape than you thought. Now, you've got to keep digging until you find the end of the mess. That can be a LOT further than you planned on.

I simply wouldn't give anyone anything more than an estimated price for a piping dig, especially in an old part of town, and the final tab would depend very much on what was found. Sometimes everything is as you'd expect, with no surprises. Other times, LOTS of surprises. Like old, buried reinforced concrete loading docks. It wasn't even from the 40 year old building that was demolished on that site 10 years ago. It was from a factory that was knocked down on the same site, before WWII.

Eric Taylor

Thanks

Thanks to all of you for your input on this. I am sorry I mentioned lawyers at all, but I was a bit hot under the collar myself. My father in law would rather hire a dozen more contractors than a lawyer. That I am sure of. And I do agree that as a society we are WAY too sue happy (Oh, you mean coffee is hot? I didn't know!). I wanted my father in law to get legal ADVICE, not start a lawsuit.

I found out this weekend that there was a cleanout after that 90 buried underground. That is what the backhoe grabbed and broke while exposing the pipe. I bet a bit more care while digging would have left the old pipe in usable condition. Remember the clog was 100' away from where they dug and was in larger dimeter pipe.

You folks are right about the fact that a deal was made BEFORE digging commenced including a price and projected work. The work projected DID involve replacing what they dug up, so the backhoe operator was probably told not to dig too carefully because they were replacing it anyway.

I found out all of this info over the weekend. My father in law has now had some time to cool off himself and he is giving up more information then the last time we talked. He did try to call other contractors before agreeing to the digging, but it was the holiday season and nobody returned his calls. So he gave the go ahead and got what he paid for. The drain works and he has a brand new cleanout above grade for any future problems.

I still maintain that the old pipe could have been saved IF they had uncovered it carefully and found that cleanout instead of smashing it. The old cleanout could have been extended to grade for future use. Then the contractor would have looked like a hero by doing the job for LESS than what was planned. Instead they looked like gorillas smashing pipe that was fine and breaking the water main. As for the water main, well both the soil pipe and the water main enter the basement at the same point. They HAD to know that the possibility of hitting the water main was there and they should have been more careful. I don't blame the plumber for the old valve, but it never would have needed to be touched in the first place if the digging was done carefully.

I still have mixed feelings about the whole situation, but in the end, the drain now works.

Thanks again for all of your input.

Eric

Mad Dog

Digging by hand would have taken even longer and

been more costly...Maybe they were meatheads, but trust me it is NOT an easy job...Mad Dog

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Rich_2

A one hundred year old house & 135' run ,says it all ! could have been a nightmare job , how many man hours? Like the man said you could have got a second opinion , but it doesn't sound like a cheap job

Eric Taylor

man hours

Not counting the water company fixing the valve, there were two men for two LONG days. They were knee deep in water because of the break in the main, and they did have to fix the water main that was broken. I'm guessing about 20-25 man hours not counting transporting the equipment. When the snake finally got to the clog, it cleared instantly, and all the water in the trench emptied in seconds. It was not a fun job for any of the parties involved thats for sure.

I would have tried other methods before calling anyone. There were clues that pointed to where the clog was. After 10 hours of not adding any water to the drain it was possible to take a shower and flush the WC a couple times before it backed up. That shows there was lots of volume between the clog and the lowest drain in the house. My father in law's eyes aren't so good, so I bet he didn't read the directions on the drain cleaner that says "don't pour into standing water". By the time the cleaner got to the clog it had to be so diluted that it was useless. If he had waited untill the line had trickled down before adding cleaner he might have had more luck. He also has several air compressors. Maybe put test plugs in all the drain openings and puff a little air down there. Might work, but could also cause more problems if TOO much air went in.

I just hope it never happens to me. My house has 100 year old 4" iron soil pipe that run under my slab from the back of the house about 75' to the street. Maybe I should pour drain cleaner in every now and then to keep it clear!

Mad Dog

You know Eric...you are such a great diagnostician...I just

can't understand why you didn't jump in to the morass and start leading the troops. You are very critical of these fellas. Apparently, you had all the answers...all along...get over it...or start your own sewer and drain company ...good luck!@!!!!!!!!! Mad Dog

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Eric Taylor

Not Fun

I have too much fun pulling wrenches on equipment like fuel cells, uninterruptable power systems, and experimental fusion reactors to switch professions to drain cleaning. Not that opening drains isn't lucrative, but just not my cup of tea ;-)

Mad Dog

Exactly what I thought you would say Eric

You don't want to get your own poop on your hands, how do you think we feel about working around your poop???? Exactly!!! IT"S NO FUN, as you stated. Sewer and drain cleaning is nasty, disgusting, dangerous work...anyone who does it deserves every penny they get. Besides, the dangers of cave ins, we have to worry about Hepatitis, aids, dysyntery, cholera and many other pathogens...not to mention the putrid stench of human waste. Sewermen may not be building rockets like you (which is pretty cool stuff), but they are vital, necessary, and more important than all other trades, and professions, yours and doctor's included, for you see....No Civilization can survive without proper disposal of human waste...never have never will....PEACE!!!!!brother Mad Dog

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