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After spouting all that.......
I failed to mention that I get called in to repair and salvage radiant systems from CONTRACTORS who took the money and ran. Just another reason, I fear, the Internet companies are raking in the money. We need to police ourselves much better before we try to solve the rest of the world's problems. Dontcha' think?
Warm Regards,
hb
climatecadvanced.com
"Expert in Silent Warmth"
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"There was an error rendering this rich post.
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even worse
is the fact that around here, at least 60% of the "professional" hvac contractors depend on their wholesaler to do design, sizing, piping diagrams etc even for fin tube baseboard systems. And more than that get the wholesaler to do heatloss/gains - for all types of systems (A/C, scorched air, whatever).
Quite scary IMHO
You also need to recognize that there are two groups of DIYers. One that doesn't know what he doesn't know. The other who realizes what he doesn't know, enjoys learning what he needs to, enjoys doing the work. Remember the HO that Dan Foley did some work for who piped his own steam boiler?
Mark
PS - the comparison to physicians may sound good within the trade but will only get laughter from the general populace.0 -
I have to agree........
With Chris on this one, laying tubing is not at all difficult, especially if you have an un coiler (I did'nt on my first job)well I did but it was home made and did the trick. I put down 900', 4 loops in maybe 3 hours by myself using the sandwich method (sleepers on the floor) The hard part is coming up with a plan and executing it. It took much longer to put the sleepers and the plates down. But I also agree that we should not give out too much of our hard earned knowledge for free atleast not to homeowners. So if a home owner wants let him have a contractor first stub the supply and return lines and let the homeowner run the tube back, then the contractor can go back with the manifolds and all the boiler room goodies and spend a couple of days piping and tweaking. Having dealt with Chris personally he is more then competent to speak on this subject, this man KNOWS his radiant better then anyone I've spoke with, way better and that includes Dan! The proof is in my job, A few conversations with Chris and I learned volumes, a full day at Dan's seminar and I learned he does'nt know radiant,except for what he'd read from the same book I read ...that being the Wirsbo manual, no offense Dan but your radiant course is bogus and when you could'nt answer my questions you were like a politician, you talked around the question. I lost a whole day plus a buck and a half, for that I say thanks for nothing! But I do thank you for this site.
Frankie Sev0 -
Wirsbo $$$
The heck with that, I have the fastest time ever recorded at the go-cart track!
Best advice ever? Stay out of the way of Wes! He's a madman behind the wheel(G). I felt like I was 14 again.
Then there was the ram-rod from Dan Floey's shop who did his level best to re-arrange my bone structure! Dang teenage drivers(G). No way this old fat man was giving way to let him pass...........
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I'm all for homeowner
or general contractor help. Especially in the tube, mesh, insulation phase. I live, and work, in the "Show me State" Missouri. Homeowner and contractors ask, on a regular basis, how they can help, to save costs.
I have yet to have it backfire. As hb stated, set down the rules up front!! I have seen some beautiful tube and plate installations done by my clients. They seem to take extra care and pride when it's a one time install in their own home
Everyone wins in this plan, and I find the homeowners "spread the word" far and wide when they get a sweat equity bone tossed their way!
The older and creak e er I get the more I appreciate the help!
hot rod
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I'd gladly pay
I'd gladly pay someone of your caliber to design the system. You have the experience and training, and know what works, and what doesn't. I'll never be in your league, and I am fully aware of that. You're correct, that knowledge is worth $$. However, I'll bet that I can drill through a joist nearly as well as you, and I can sweat a decent joint. Maybe this proposed web site could provide quality designs, at a fair price, that would allow the handy person to do the grunt work, and end up with a system that is superior to the "here's your tubing, now you figure out the rest" approach. Alternatively, the site could help link up homeowners with contractors who are willing to allow some sweat equity.
I looked for a reputable contractor or engineer to design a system that I would install - couldn't find one. There are people who supply cookie cutter designs, but I wanted someone to do a design for my circumstances, for my drafty old farm house, within my constraints. I spent the better part of a year researching and learning the basics of radiant. The thing that I couldn't gain from research is the knowledge that comes from designing and installing hundreds of systems.0 -
I remember
all too well, Dave. The boys at the track needed new flags by the time we left the place. We came in second by like 1/100000 of a sec-guess who won......again;)
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Wirsbo training
Ohhh...to have a job where I can act like a kid again (like the Wirsbo Training staff).
Wait a second. I DO! I'm a hydronics engineer.
(My parents bought me a Lincoln Log kit when I was six.)
Does life truly get any better than this? 8-)0 -
What was the question?
Was it a technical question, Frankie? If so, please let me know and I'll try my best to get you an answer.
If you're talking about all the Frank from Philly questions you had for me during the break and your needing to know why I banned your friend from the Wall, I tried my best to answer those questions, and I think I did it kindly. If this made me sound like a politician then I'll have to live with that.
I'm glad that you're enjoying the Wall.Retired and loving it.0 -
Me too
As a homeowner, I am on Chris's side. As a professional in the information technology industry, I have seen more bad programs written and sold by hacks than I care to think about. Yet if that's what people want to buy, then so be it. I sell my services based on my experience, knowledge and capabilities. If someone would still rather use an accounting program "written by their nephew", I probably don't want them as a customer anyway. If someone wants me to tell them how to write an accounting system, I'll do it. Knowledge is a good thing. Don't hoard it.
-cf0 -
Sharing Education
Craig: I couldn't agree with you more. We must share the education...but, as college professors are reimbursed for their knowlege, so should HVAC training professionals.
Our company offers extensive training to the HVAC community because we do believe in educating professionals.
Could you teach someone how to write an accounting program over the telephone? Worse yet, could you help them debug a home-grown (or badly written) program over the phone?
That gives you some idea of what some people expect of us when they call.0 -
Thank You Frank
I appreciate your comments. By the way, I may have a job for you in New Hartford, CT. Give me a call we'll talk about it.0 -
the question was........
about design and layout, because it was not an easy or simple or small room. As I said , I learned from you all I learned from the wirsbo site, I was just disappointed because I hold you in such high regards, Dan you are the steam master and what I've learned from your books I could'nt gain from 100 yrs on the job and I guess I expected that you would be able to answer any question about any type of heat,....regardless... you're the man that started me pumping away, I apologize for being negative, but it really bothered me to lose money and time for naught. As for my friend from philly you were right on, and a gentleman, and I certainly respect you for that.
Thanks for not banning me..........I hope
Frankie Sev0 -
Those guys are nuts!!!!
> The heck with that, I have the fastest time ever
> recorded at the go-cart track!
>
> Best advice
> ever? Stay out of the way of Wes! He's a madman
> behind the wheel(G). I felt like I was 14
> again.
>
> Then there was the ram-rod from Dan
> Floey's shop who did his level best to re-arrange
> my bone structure! Dang teenage drivers(G). No
> way this old fat man was giving way to let him
> pass...........
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 98&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,
> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A
> Contractor"_/A_
They took us to the Mall of America and tried to kill us with virtual reality racing.
After getting put into the wall a couple of times I decided to go sample the "Beers of America" and see some of the mall.
AND JOHN BARBA STILL OWES ME 5000' OF 1/2" HePex TUBING!!!!!
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Those guys are nuts!!!!
> The heck with that, I have the fastest time ever
> recorded at the go-cart track!
>
> Best advice
> ever? Stay out of the way of Wes! He's a madman
> behind the wheel(G). I felt like I was 14
> again.
>
> Then there was the ram-rod from Dan
> Floey's shop who did his level best to re-arrange
> my bone structure! Dang teenage drivers(G). No
> way this old fat man was giving way to let him
> pass...........
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 98&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,
> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A
> Contractor"_/A_
They took us to the Mall of America and tried to kill us with virtual reality racing.
After getting put into the wall a couple of times I decided to go sample the "Beers of America" and see some of the mall.
AND JOHN BARBA STILL OWES ME 5000' OF 1/2" HePex TUBING!!!!!
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Those guys are nuts!!!!
They took us to the Mall of America and tried to kill us with virtual reality racing.
After getting put into the wall a couple of times I decided to go sample the "Beers of America" and see some of the mall.
AND JOHN BARBA STILL OWES ME 5000' OF 1/2" HePex TUBING!!!!!
Mark H
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
you
sure you were singing on key, Mark? Looks like JB is gonna eat his words!
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