How does one get an idea on RFH costs?

Paul_10

We are planning a new colonial style 2 story home, about 3300 sq. ft plus probably another 1000 basement that will be eventually finished, and a 3 car garage.

I have NO experience with RFH, but really want it in my new home for a variety of reasons including comfort and health.

We're trying to make some basic financial planning decisions, but many of our "wants" like Icynene insulation and hardwood floors throughout for me, and granite in the kitchen for my wife are bumping up against financial reality.

Is there a way to get an idea of what a system in this size range would cost? We do have a floorplan, and I did send away for some information from Radiantec, but I didn't find their product/system to give me much confidence.

We would like to have multizoned as much as reasonably possible, and adjusted to outside temp. I am willing to do some work to lower costs if I can. This is a custom home, built by Amish, so we can do whatever we want.

I was told that this forum is THE place to be WRT hydronic heating, and I apologize for such a FAQ question, but I've heard from people who say they installed a system in a house my size for $5k, and another guy who said he was quoted $50K. Who to believe....

thanks!

Floyd

RFH is a needed item!!!!

You do NOT want to build your house with out it... and do NOT attempt to do it yourself!!!
Find a competent contractor who knows radiant!!!!

You can will find a very wide range of prices.. if you go with something in the middle you will
probably end up with a good system... but without all the bells and whistles!!!!

Don't know you so I don't know if this applies to you.... but there are many people out there that
think nothing of spending 25G for a car that they will trade in five years, but will have a heart attack
before they spend 25G on comfort for a lifetime!!!

Floyd

Heatermon

RFH costs

I would believe they're both right (5K & 50K), but all things being equal, the 50k system is better than the 5k system. It's like comparing a 50K Cadillac to a 5K Kia. They both will get you to the same place, but the rides will be very different. I hope you are at least a year away from starting your project so you can get and absorb all the information you will need to make an educated decision as to what "YOU" value in the installation. There are many ways to install, control and maintain a radiant system. Find the one that "best" suits your needs. As a radiant contractor, I can tell you that nothing turns me off more from a project, than a homeowner who doesn't know anything about the systems, wants "it" done for a certain price, and is starting the project "a week from tuesday" (don't laugh, it happens all the time to me lately). The best projects I have done for people are the ones where the homeowner approaces us well before the plans are drawn, and keeps asking, learning, and modifying the project on paper until they are comfortable with both the design and price of "their" system. Keep asking your questions and get an idea of what is "important" to your project and what are "luxuries". I know "price" is important to you now, but without first getting some more specifics (which should be done through a professional designer) I would hate to take a "guess" at what a good system for you would cost. Good luck with your project.

Heatermon

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Mark Hunt

5k


is not possible, that much I know.

I would recommend finding a good radiant contractor in your area and let them crunch the numbers.

It is your house and your money. You are in charge of the comfort level.

Beware of internet "radiant" companies. The fact that they may be monitoring this site prevents me from telling you what I REALLY think of them.

Mark H



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Dave Yates (PAH)

sweat equity

There is no set rule of thumb for me. Until I've finished a detailed heat loss analysis and applied my best judgement regarding mixing strategies and tubing/heat emitter designs, I can't pin point pricing. There is no substitute for the field applied knowledge in the initial design process and I prefer doing my own designs. Those done by suppliers are typically performed by individuals with little or no practical experience and the CYA method often sees oversized equipment being specified. I recently was asked to bid a large commnercial job intended to be injection piping. The dersign specified by the wholesaler's vendor was a total mess and we decided to walk away from the job. The owner will be spending thousands more than he could have with the design supplied. They weren't interested in having our input.

We just completed a radiant home with hardwood & granite. The original HVAC contractor quit the day he was supposed to start. His bid for 3,000+ square feet of radiant (4-zones) under hardwood and two separate A/C systems was 18K. No doubt he finally realized the wholesale costs of the materials alone was more than his bid!

We became involved, but the owners couldn't fit our numbers into their budget. They interviewed five additional mechanical contractors before coming back to us & together we worked out a resolution that had the owners doing a great deal of the work. I'd never allowed a portion of our work to be performed by anyone outside of our firm prior to this job & I definately had reservations. Reluctantly, I agreed to go forward. Well, the owners did a fantastic job and followed my instructions to the letter! The job went very smoothly and we were able to bring it in under our bid price, which resulted in a savings of several thousand dollars for the homeowners.

If you're in PA Dutch country, we're only a stone's throw away. Here's a picture of what sweat equity looks like!



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hr

Realistically

In my opinion a basic system will run $6 and up a square foot. Slab on grade systems go in least expensively, in my experience. Transfer plates, gypcrete, high efficiency boilers, multi zones, smart control systems, etc are all considerations. Like purchasing a new car, the more options the higher the costs!

Also considering warming just the critical areas. All the bathrooms, possibly kitchen and dining areas. Any area where people gather or "undress" Now, maybe, you are in the 5K range, depends on your area, heat loss, and square footage.

Shop around, but don't be tempted into a "too good to be true" price for radiant floors

Install the tube now and connect and activate after "your ship comes in" or you win the lottery

Or you could consider building a smaller home, use the savings to install a great whole house radiant system, and end up at the same "amount spent" plus you save money over the life of the building. It costs less to warm a smaller house, all things being equal.

hot rod

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Chris Maderia

Pricing

Paul,

There is no set price on radiant heat. I have been designing systems for over 10 years and I have yet to see 2 homes cost anywhere near the same. Like most people out there that have very little or no knowledge on radiant you first must decide what your heat source will be. The cost of tubing, manifolds and the other installation aids is really nothing compared to the cost of your heat source, control strategy and labor. The first question you must ask yourself is, "What is my heat source going to be?" Why? Because it will decide on which controls you will use. If you decide your heat source will be a Viessmann or a Buderus then you must look at their controls. If you go with an Amercian boiler than you must look at an outside source for your control strategy.

Now this is probably going to catch me alot of flack. The first step I would do is get a complete heat loss and radiant design from a reputable source (I would do this prior to picking a contractor). Ask for your design in multiple ways, ie. Joist Heating w/plates, Joist Heating w/o plates, and for above the floor radiant with some type of panel. Now go find a reputable radiant contractor. Sit down with him and figure out which application is best for your situation. Together, decide on a heat source, and control strategy. I tell you this because if you really want radiant and you have the time, you could really save yourself some $$$$ by installing the tubing yourself. Putting in tubing and laying plates is very easy, it's just very time consuming and as long as you have a legitimate design and you coordinate with your contractor, follow all installation instructions then you should have no problem. I just had a customer who did exactly this and he saved himself over $6,000.00 on a 2,500 sqft home. This was all labor dollars. If you need a design done for you e-mail me with your location and I could recommend someone for you.

Paul_10

I really appreciate all the feedback. Personally I am placing good insulation, good heating/cooling and good windows at the top of my list for prioritizing our available $$. It's getting a sense of expected costs that is causing the headaches. I get the sense that not much radiant heat is installed around here, and I'm very leary that I'll get either a very high cost because they don't want to do it, or get lowballed by an inexperienced contractor and then either get a shoddy or inadequate job. I've been doing a lot of reading on radiant heating, and I'm not afraid to put in some sweat equity to save money!

If anyone here can point me towards an knowledgeable, HONEST tradesperson/company in the central/NE ohio area I'd appreciate it. I figure anyone who bothers to frequent a place like this has a real interest.

Appreciate the feedback.

BTW, is the difference between Lexus and Yugo costs primarily in the boiler? Controllers? Labor to install many zones? Trying to figure out what we may need to "give up" to save money.

heatboy

Near Cleveland?

Actually Avon. If so, the ONLY person you should be talking to is Andy Stack. www.andystackandsons.com

Warm Regards,

hb

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

888-UB-COMFY

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DanHolohan

Look

here for Andy:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm.cfm?id=194&Step=30

Paul_10

I found him in the directory, but cleveland is over 2 hours away from me. I figured it would be not a good idea to have a contractor that far away in case problems arose. I'll see what my GC recommends - we have a meeting with him in 10 days. I'll post back with results from that meeting.

hr

call em

anyways. You'll get some great info and he may have another contact in your area. Worth a drive to see his award winning radiant showroom.


http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,4553,00.html


hot rod

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Dave Yates (PAH)

I agree

We're doing one that's a 3.5 hour drive - each way! Progress pictures are in the Jan/Feb 2003 issue of Smart Home Owner Mag. We wouldn't have considered such a long distance romance with hydronics if the technology wasn't there to support reliable longevity. Give Andy a call. He's one of the best.

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Brian

Contractor

Paul
You may want to contact a couple of suppliers and see who they would refer to do the job.
Good Luck
Brian

Mark Hunt

Radiant gypsies!!

> I found him in the directory, but cleveland is

> over 2 hours away from me. I figured it would be

> not a good idea to have a contractor that far

> away in case problems arose. I'll see what my GC

> recommends - we have a meeting with him in 10

> days. I'll post back with results from that

> meeting.





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Mark Hunt

Radiant gypsies!!


I wish I could get a radiant job that was less than an houe away!

The company I use for Gypcrete comes all the way from Maine and I am in New York!!!

You may be suprised!

"Have tubing, will travel!!"

All the best for your project!!!!


Mark H

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Paul_10

Just a f/u - I left email for "Andy" at the website above and haven't heard anything back yet. Hoping he'll f/u with me.

steve_6

contractor

contact these supply houses. they have the most qualified designers. Welker Mckee Inc, and Steve Kroyle at Cleveland Plumbing Supply can do the heat loads for you as well as recomend a qualifed installer. AC Plumbing and Mechanical 216-831-1719 has done radiant jobs in this area also.