I've got gas s. milne

Bob W._2

and I wasn't going to mention snowmelt systems on this board. In the Midwest we are dependent on natural gas, period. And you are correct in that the electrical side is determining gas pricing. Besides the use of gas generating plants by utilities, many manufacturing plants have been installing gas generators and negotiating long term contracts with the gas suppliers because they can't trust the utilities. End result is that the homeowner who uses NG for heating pays the bill. Frankly I feel guilty enough already for having bought an old house with a steam heating system, when we should have built a new one with ICF's and superinsulation. I sold my F150 last year for that reason; couldn't see getting 12 mpg for hauling air.

ScottMP

Article in NY TImes

I read a very interesting article in the N.Y. Times on Sunday about domestic gas production in the U.S.. It got me thinking about where our gas comes from and whether we have enough to be self sufficient, or at least lower our imported oil use and get us out of the gulf. Lots of thoughts here.

This article was about the short term use of shallow wells and using coal-bed-methane wells for gas production. I actually took notes on the article, not that its the gospil, but for the discussion.

The gyst of the article was the enviromental concerns of this type of production method. It uses's a bodacios amount of water to lower the underground water and allow the trapped gas to be pumped out. The pumped out water has a very high sodium level making it unusably for irrigation.

Typical artical, it claims this method will use as much water as the City of New York will use in two and a half years. Well does this method use it in the same amount of time, or one year, or over the ten to fifteen years this production will be operating ? Hard to rationalize with only one side of the equation.

This gas production will only last about 10-15 years but the idea is to help out untill the gulf of mexico is Tapped and weld.

Would is be possible to wean our country off foreign oil enough so that we are not IN the gulf ? This is not a discusion about which is a better fuel, just our Geo-political effects on the market.

Do we have enough natural gas to supply a majority of our heating needs ?

Does it actually burn cleaner and is it better for the eviroment ?

Food for thought. Hope it dos'nt give you gas.

Scott PS. Please help with my heat loss problem posted below. .

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Bob W._2

Gas....

My understanding is that most of our natural gas comes from Canada, and that there are very large reserves. If this info is not correct, let me know. Unless we go to war with Canada we are probably better off using gas than burning oil. Witness Venezuela. As far as using water on old wells, doesn't that apply to crude as well, using hydraulic sand fracturing, or whatever its called? Down the Minnesota River from here are several large sand pits where the Unimin Corp. refines much of the nation's frac sand.

hr

Gas info

We have about 320,000 gas wells. with @ 280 million folks in this country the US uses as much natural gas as 3 billion people in Europe and Asia!

Unlike oil, which we purchase from 25 or so countries, 99% of our natural gas is produced in North America. About 85% in the U.S., 15% from Canada. Canadians are considering capping the amount of gas sent to us, realizing the declining production from their wells and the cost of "going deeper". It takes around 7500 new wells a year to keep Alberta's production from declining.

Coalbed methane from Wyoming and Colorado about 7% of our production.

It is possible to chill natural gas (minus 260F) and liquiefie it for tanker shipping. Currently 1% maybe 3% by 2005.

Gas consumption has grown by 36% since 1986. But the biggest number to watch is electrical consumption. Energy providers have ordered 180,000 megawatts of gas fired power plants to be installed by 2005. Natural gas costs are driven by the electrical generating side, also. AC loads in these "global warming" days drive the electrical side. Remember the rolling blackouts in the east and California. Summertime AC loads generally drive this shortage. Some analysts predict our electrical need will triple by 2015. 50% more natural gas will be needed to fuel these generating plants.

Suppose this is why Bush rolled back the emmission standards on the coal fired plants. Pollution and increased health issues vs plenty of power. Take your pick. It may be time to re-think million btu residential snowmelt systems :0 Warm driveways or heat and electricty in large cities???

Staticis from Randy Udall director of the Community Office for Resource Efficiency and Steve Andrews a Denver energy analyst.

hot rod

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Floyd_2

Build more nukes!!!!!

It still amazes me how that people are so afraid of what they don't understand!!!!

Few well placed nuke power plants and we could tell the whole mid-east to kiss our American a**es!!!!

Unknown

In addition to what Hot Rod posted

we should stay friendly with Russia. Some of the largest untapped reserves of natural gas are in Siberia. Based on estimates I have heard with the present rate of growth in the world of natural gas usage we have sufficient estimated gas available to least 500 years. This does not include however the recent demand for natural gas to produce electricity.

Another nasty little bit of info is that in many mid eastern oil fields for years they burned off the natural gas as a nuisance to oil production. They have stopped doing that in the last 30 years or so. Just think about how much was wasted. They used to do the same thing down in Pennsylvania near my hometown. The underground methane from the coal mines was obvoiusly dangerous so they burned it off.

We in America are probably the most wasteful bunch of people in the world. Decorative gas fireplaces burning 24/7 in most hotel lobbys as an example. Wasteful and useless plus they make CO in tremendous amounts.

Someday someone will pay for all this waste.

Answer two stage or modulating systems with good temperature control to reduce the amount of wasted BTU's. It will eventually become a mandate that we have on high efficiency heating and cooling systems(gas used to produce electricity). We need to quit firing equipment at full input when it is not needed.

We also need to look to alternative heating and cooling sources. The use of co generation and fuel cells in large institutions and eventually central heating plants for condos and housing developments that will heat, cool and produce electricity.

joel_14

oil

Oilis only used for heating in the East this is not a huge part of the problem So I don't see how going Natural for heating systems would help. Most of that oil goes to gasoline production as i understand it. The real issue in the gulf is money there are plenty of other places to get the oil.

hr

I've heard that before

when I lived in Utah they claimed the Wyoming overthrust had a 100 year supply of natural gas. Either someone is hiding that or??? Maybe the Russians have drilled through the center of the earth and sucked it out from under us

But, like water, gas and oil flows towards money, and military might, always. Hmmmm I wonder what the Korean Pennisula holds???

hot rod

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hr

Ironically enough

some large natural gas users are looking into LP for back up, as natural gas supplies get low. Apparently O2 can be mixed with LP somehow and burned in the same equipment, without orfice changes, etc.

That will take care of my low priced LP no doubt!

http://www.altenergy.com/technologypaper.htm#WHAT IS A PROPANE VAPORIZER?

hot rod

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hr

So a reactor in your back yard

would be OK? Sounds like a tasty terroist target to me And the spent fuel rods will be stored where? Hasn't been a nuclear plant built, in the U.S. in over 20 years. Even if it could be "sold" to the public the cost of building, safely staffing, and protecting it from attack, would make for some expensive electricty.

Not a lot of easy answers for this problem.

hot rod

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Mark Eatherton1

The Korean penninsula holds...

spent neuclear fuel rods for enriched uranium bombs. Doesn't everyone know that :-)

We ARE headed for another energy crisis, topped only by an environmental crisis. Maybe that is what it will take to get all countries working off the same page eh...

ME

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Unknown

I hope not

we used to mix propane air with natrual gas. It was nothing but problems. Burners popping, carboning up, pilot outage like crazy, when we mixed propane it was overtime on top of overtime just trying to keep the burners running. Not to mention that as they vaporized and mixed the moisture content in the gas went up and we had all of our roof top piping freeze up. It was a nightmare never was a good idea.

Steve Ebels

It blows my mind

That the powers that be in California are mandating electric cars. Are they that stupid that they don't realize what they are doing? What happens when everyone gets home from work at 4:30 to 6:00 and now not only turns on the A/C but plugs in the electric car charger also. COME OOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNN! Is there no common sense left out there or what!!!?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

YES

I'm quite willing to live with a nuclear plant in the back yard.

I do have faith in our engineering capabilities to produce such with reasonable safety to workers and adjacent residents.

Defending against terrorism is nearly impossible--the insane and determined will always find a new way.

Quite frankly, I hope that something--anything--kills me BEFORE I turn into my father-in-law. He's a good, kind, intelligent, hard-working, reverent man who for over a year wants nothing more than to die because his body is worn out yet his wife tells him he must go on and doctors only prolong his agony...

Our creater alone endowed us with life and just like heat it can ONLY be transformed--NEVER destroyed.

Perhaps my vices are actually my salvation.

Floyd

No problem...

My dad actually farms land right across the river from the Limerick plant in southeast Pa.
The plume of steam rising out of the 500 ft towers is really an awesome site!!!!
My brother-in-law is an electrical engineer and works in the Peach Bottom plant near
Quarryville, Pa. I have qizzed him on the safety of the palnts many times.... he has said that
they are very safe and that all the Gov. regulation is so crazy and that it is all because people
have no idea what is really happening there. The regs. are so strict, that they turn cheap nuclear
power into a very expensive deal.

There are many things that are just as dangerous as them..... it's just that people are not informed
of the dangers!!!! Does anyone care to comment on the condition of the 100+ yr old gas lines under
many of our cities????
How bout the water lines that leak and if left unpressurized for a time suck all kinds of muck back into
them????
How bout the many old septic systems that still run into our lakes and streams??? spreading diseases
and pollution????


Right now I be in favor of anything that would make us independent of forgien countries!!!!!
We have the technology and now how right here to be independent, and if we keep importing
everything we need from everywhere else.... we are going to end up being the slaves of the
rest of the world!!!!!

You don't think it can happen.... do you?????


Floyd

ScottMP

Russian Gas

Tim I to have heard this and I believe staying friendly with Russia is in our best interest on a number of levels. The question is how would we transport that gas to our shores ? An early post said it could be liquified ? What kind of a ocean bomb is that ?

Our Goverment claims that our best domestic production for natural gas comes form the Gulf Of Mexico. Thats is stll years away do to the logistics of drilling and platforms.

I too used to be concerned about nuclear reactors and yes they make a good target. So does a reservoir of our drinking water. As far as safty is concerned, how long has our nuclear submarine fleet been operating with out a major incedent ? Maybe the time has come to put away unfounded fears and look into this again.

I think California is trying to lower emmisions with a electric car. But then there you go, plug a hole and another shows up. We lower emmisions and increase dependancy on a fuel.

When does Detroit get on the band wagon and start making cars that use less fuel, like we know they can .

Scott

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Steamhead

Conservation is part of the answer

but doesn't get much press these days. The current adminstration has its head firmly planted in the sand on this issue, but we don't have to do the same. We Wetheads need to get into this area, we can do much to cut our customers' energy usage. Why wait for car companies and other large corporations to take the lead?

Simple things like combustion testing (besides being toxic, CO is wasted fuel), proper sizing of new equipment, pipe insulation, reset controls, setback thermostats, air venting, stack dampers etc. are part of our Wethead craft. Watch your customer perk up when you say you can reduce their fuel consumption. Then do it!

Those of us who don't do things like house insulation, storm windows etc. would do well to keep a list of contractors in these areas who we know will do good work.





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Greg_4

Our CEO

(we're a rural NG & electrical utility) is concerned of two things in recent messages to staff. One is increased (uncontrolled) demand vs. infrastructure. Fuel cells for the other. Sure, he wants to sell all the power or gas we can, but systems are limited in capacity. We always perform energy usage studies on buildings before any HVAC work is done and tell customers to 'use it (energy) wisely'. We constantly preach of conserving lighting options, energy efficiency upgrades, conservation, etc.

One thing we have ample supplies of here in the Midwest is wind. Windfarms are being planned, built and brought on line. Part of making lemonade out of lemons.

There are energy options out there, but economics and the powers that be have a grip on development.
I, too fear war looming upon us. Greg

Steamhead

Greg, your CEO

sounds like someone I'd like to work with.

Speaking of energy-efficient lighting, here's a link to a good supplier:

www.bulbs.com

They have many more different types of compact fluorescents and other energy-efficient lighting options than anyone else I've seen- including the Orange Box.

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Jim_13

Long range

The future will be Hydrogen Fuel Cells in the long term. Renewable, clean. The proposed cells for cars in about 2015 will be powerful enough to produce electric and heat for a typical northeast coast home. Nukes are problematic because of the spent fuel rods. Used contaminated equipment, that has to be "cooled down" on site before it can even be shipped to Utah for the 250k years half life, tells me cost prohibitive.

hr

Disturbing numbers

for gasoline use. The Ford F series ranks number one in sales, by Motor Trend for 02. over 875,000 units sold compared to # 3 Toyota Camry at 434,983.

Silverado was number 2 at 693,000 and Ford Explorer 440,000 at #3. The worst figures, in my opinion, ever for poor fuel mileage, vehicles sold.

Wish there was a better way, currently available. Of the fuel an automobile consumes 80% is lost as engine heat and exhaust,of the of 20 % left 95% moves the vehicle mass while 5% actually moves the occupant. In proportion to their respective weight!

Certainly many car owners could go from home to Target and back in a lot less than a Ford Excursion! Perhaps a 60 mpg hybrid! Although kudos to Ford for deciding to discontinue the "Exxon Valdez" of the SUV world

hot rod

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Bob W._2

Motor Trend or Car and Driver did a comparison...

of average weights of passenger vehicles. They compared 1973 to 1998, I believe. Because so many of us drive trucks and SUV's the average weight had gone up over 500 lbs. since the first fuel crisis.

Mason

Detroit, what does Detroit have to do with this??? Everyone knows there are no cars built in Detroit anymore.......... When is Mexico City going to jump on the bandwagon????

Mason

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

the solution to the energy crises

is solar heating, and we can do it. bob

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Korean Petroleum

It appears the North has very significant off-shore reserves just waiting development....

Is anyone surprised?

http://www.rmfdevelopment.com/political/NorthKoreaOil.htm