Heating system a mystery to me

Andy Milleville

I have a *very* old house in upstate NY. It's a baseboard hot water heating system with two zones. The two thermostat controls are one room apart on the first floor. The second floor was recently renovated and insulated. Because the thermostat is on the first floor, the second floor is either *very* warm or *very* cold. There is no in between. I'm thinking of replacing one of the downstairs thermostats with a wireless thermostat upstairs to solve this problem. Any thoughts or ideas on this would be appreciated.

My main question is how is the thermostat wired? I replaced on of the thermostats last month and had some problems getting it working. I had to switch it to the 'electric' setting to get it to work with the boiler. I'm fairly sure that I have it wired wrong - if the upstairs zone isn't on, the downstairs never gets warm regardless of the setting. This behavior is new with the new thermostat.

There are two silver boxes sitting on the pipes in the basement than hum. There's also a disc inside that sticks out a little and spins while it hums. I have no idea what this device is. I think this has the wires coming out of it that connect it to the thermostat.

Is there a standard way that this gizmo is wired? What wire corresponds to what terminal on the thermostats? What do I even call this thing?

Sorry for the long post.. I hope someone can help. Thanks!

ed wallace

heat problems

i think you need a contractor to help you it sounds like you have zone valves attached to the pipes and they mjght be wired wrong you also need to move the thermostat to the 2nd floor in order to get the heat to work properly

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Kevin Coppinger

sounds a ...

bit complex. It sound like the first floor zone tries to heat the entire floor when the t-stat calls there by overiding the other. Find out what baseboard is off of which zone for starters. Then run another 18 gauge t-stsat wire to the second floor into a room that has baseboard in it. Most t-stats are only two wire t-sats, (r&w terminals).How they hook in to the ZV in the basement could be a bit tricky but if yoiu carefull trace the two wire wire form the tsat that you want to move it should be a snap. Unlees you ae really confident I might get a pro to help you out. I also would do a total heat loss to find out what you have for baseboard on which floor. If you have baeboard on the 1st floor controlled off the 2nd floor t-stat it could get aggrivating. kpc

frank s

sounds like

sounds to me that you have white and rodgers zone valves, most of the older ones were 3 wire to the T-stat, they can be used on a 2 wire stat but you have to use the correct 2 wires. The disc should not constantly rotate, on a call for heat the disc should move to the open position then stop, If you have these zone valves (silver boxes) with black on top email me and I'll send you some wiring diagrams.

Frank

Duncan_2

Your heating guy can help. If he's good.

No offense intended, Andy, but the tone of your post kinda gives me the feeling you may not have much experience wiring control circuits. If this is the case, you should call a reputable, smart heating guy. Miswiring a heating system can cause personal injury or property damage - as in scalding injury, burns, steam explosion, fire or big water leak.

Here's a general explanation FOR DESCRIPTION ONLY! I am DEFINITELY NOT suggesting you try to rewire your system based on my GENERIC description which may not even be an accurate description of your system. I can't see it from here.

A typical room thermostat is pretty much an on/off switch. It also has an anticipator which controls boiler-on cycle length. Your description of an 'electric' (heat) setting sounds like you have an electronic thermostat - this setting is pretty much a time-based anticipator.

The silver boxes you describe sound like zone valves. They are valves that are driven open and closed with a small motor. The 'disc inside that sticks out a little' leads me to believe you have White Rodgers zone valves.

Standard zone valve wiring uses a 24 volt transformer as a power source and the room thermostat as a switch to open the zone valve. When the zone valve is fully open, another on/off switch internal to the zone valve -called an end switch- will close. This end switch controls a relay in the boiler which turns a circulating pump on and off, as well as the burner (which is wired through various safety devices).

That disk on your zone valve should spin to open and stop in the open position on a room thermostat call for heat. When the call for heat is satisfied, they should spin to the closed position and stop spinning. My guess is that the electronic thermostat isn't compatible with the W/R zone valve. Power to the thermostat drops out when the valve is in the open position, and the valve goes through it's opening/closing cycle constantly. This would be indicated by the disk spinning constantly.

Frankly, these zone valves can be a pain in the **** to wire correctly even for a heating guy who wires a fair amount of heating systems. If I don't work with them for a while, I have to get out the literature once again and figure it out. Once you figure them out, they're no big deal. Guys who work with them all the time seem to have no trouble with them. They just don't seem to be too common in my area. They're a good valve, they seem to last forever, and rebuild kits are available. Just a pain to wire if you're not intimately familiar with 'em.

If any -I mean ANY- single part of this explanation confuses you, call your heating guy, and listen for confidence in his voice when he answers your question: "Are you comfortable wiring White Rodgers zone valves?"

Hell, for all I know, you may not even have W/R zone valves, this whole ramble is based on a written description. And like others noticed, a reason for your problem don't exactly leap out at me with the symptoms you describe.

Call a good hot water heating guy is my advice.

Duncan_2

That was my impression too, Frank.

And Andy... if the wires are the "stab-in" type (rather than screw terminals), even if you wire them correctly they have a tendency to make poor connections and cause intermittent problems. Unless you use the proper gauge wire, or double up smaller gauge wire.

Andy Milleville

You guys are excellent

I really appreciate everyone's help on this... this is a huge help.

I'm trying to save some money by understanding as much of this as I can so I don't get snowballed if I do have to call someone. That being said, I'm smart about not getting in over my head. I'm comfortable with wiring as long as I have clear directions, but I'm not going to start pulling apart things I don't understand.

Frank, I would really appreciate getting wiring diagrams of these zone valves. They do sound like the WR valves you and others described. I'd like to try and match them up to the thermostat diagrams I have.

Better yet, if someone could say to me, terminal A on the zone valve goes to the terminal C on the t-stat, and so on, it would be even more foolproof.

And yes, Duncan, the t-stat I replaced is a digital one. There are five terminals on it. You're also right when you say that I don't have much experience with these things - no offense whatsoever taken!

The current wiring is an absolute mess, but I'll try to describe it. There are a total of eight wires coming out of each zone valve. There are three wires (red, light green, and white) connecting the two valves together (Why would anyone want to do this?) Both valves have two more sets of wrapped wires. One set has three wires (red, white, and green) and each of those sets goes to one t-stat. The other set has only two wires (white/red in one, black/white in the other valve) that go someplace. My guess is that these come from the 24 volt transformer. I had my wife describe the wires to me over the phone.

What should each of these wires do? I'm more concerned about figuring out how the wires from the valve get connected to the stat than anything else. I think once that's fixed everything should be straightened out, except for getting the wireless stat for upstairs.

Thanks again!

Dale

Looks like

A white rogers 13A02 valve. Which has 7 terminals.It may be a 1361 or 1311 White rogers makes the valve for 3 and 2 wire stats. It's very important to get the exact number off the zone valve to get the correct wiring diagram. I would repalce the programmable stat with a simple 2 or 3 wire or whatever is going to the original. If that works there's a programmable out there that can be made to work. I agree with the other post in that the valve is spinning because of the new stat and it isn't made to spin constantly.

Andy Milleville

According to my wife, the model number on it is a 1311-102.

Next question is: these ZV's appear to be wired in serial - one valve has two wires that run to the transformer, and the other valve has two wires that run to the ignition module on the boiler. This accounts for the wires that run between zone valves, but can you actually *do* that?

Also, I still wouldn't know how to wire up a simple 3 wire mechanical stat. I don't know which wires do what. The stat comes with directions that say, "The red wire goes here," but how do they know what the red wire in my house does? Based on what Duncan said, I don't want to try all 6 different combinations and risk damaging something.

Unknown

White Rodgers 1311-102 ZV's

I agree with what everyone has advised you to do and that is to get a pro to look at this system.

The Zone Valves you have identified are SPDT operated ZV's. They require power to open and power to close. They are identified in heating circles as Series 20 controls.

The wiring should be as follows:

Terminals #1 and #2 (5) go to the transformer. Terminals #2 & #5 are common to one another.

Terminals #4 & #5 are power to open.

Terminals #5 & #6 are power to close.

If color coded the match up for terminals is as follows:

RED is #5

WHITE is #6

BLUE is #4

The #2 and #3 wires should go to the "T" "T" terminals on your relay. On some relays it will be "T" and "TV" on White Rodgers relays it may be "T1" and "T2". The #2 and #3 bring on your system once the ZV opens.

You need to make sure your thermostat heating cicuit is a SPDT (single pole double throw) switching action other wise it will not work correctly.

I have a number of instructions available to you if you want to e-mail me I will try to help you out. Once again let me encourage you to hire a professional.

frank s

Wiring diagrams

Andy, let me know if these do the trick.
Frank