Slow leaks in copper joint self-seal?

Paul_8

Will slow leaks (1 drip per minute) in soldered copper joints eventually seal themselves through oxidation? Or will the closed system of a boiler prevent that from happening?

I will have to go after another leak that started a couple months after the contractor left. It is in a difficult spot that doesn't give me enough room to use a tube cutter for cutting 1.25" pipe. Can a sawzall be used if it will likely give me somewhat of an angled cut?

ed wallace

slow leak

probably not i woild not use a sawzall try this instead drain system down get a piece of sheet metal to protect combustable materials then reaplly flux and try to resolder

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

it probably won't

stop leaking. why don't you call the contractor back? be careful soldering close to timbers, your insurance may not cover it. bob

Dan m_2

leaky joint

Hello
Im not a wethead , I dont even play one on TV but i have produced enougth bad solder joints to feel your pain. Small drips usually get bigger when your not home. I agree with Ed wallace , resoldering is the best way to stop it. I had to drain my system and resolder several joints . Make sure no water is in the pipe or it wont take solder. IF the pipe doesnt have much pitch to it the water may want to sit at the Joint and keep you from soldering.This will be apparent because no matter how much heat you apply it wont take solder. I had a few do this so I pushed up on the joint to drain the water away untill it worked. Apply new flux and more solder and then clean the joint well . I used a sawzall on a couple of tougth cuts , it leaves large burrs and angle cuts that are very difficult to work with. In some cases where I did not like to go or could not cut cleanly( crawl space under my porch) I would cut the pipe in ares that were easier to access and then prefabricate a hole section. (I had to determine whether the cost of the components was less than the value of the experiance of laying next to a dead cat).

Good luck

dan

hr

Get ya a

tiny tim mini hack saw, or a blade holder. A fine tooth blade allows you a clean cut on copper. Resoldering sometimes works, but it may be better to dissasemble, clean, re flux and repair with repair couplings.

Worse case scenario get a compression coupling, ugly but effective Find a brand without a center ridge that allows you to slide over the tube and install.

hot rod

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Jackchips

Re-soldering

very rarely works. By now the joint is probably just to dirty to hold solder. What you usually end up doing is putting a bead of solder around the joint that may, but more than likely, may not work. Then if it does hold it may just let go again during the expansion and contraction of the system.

If there is any give to the joint you may be able to heat it, pull it apart as far as possilbe (an extra pair of hands would help), re-flux as much of the pipe as you can, reinstall the pipe into the fitting and then solder.

Best bet is hr's solution.

chuck shaw

another approach

might be, to use what is called a jet coupling, or a drip coupling. They have a small cap, which can be removed, when you heat the joint, the steam/water has someplace to escape to.

Cut back from the bad joint, a few inches, remove and reclean, and flux the leaking pipe, then reinstall using the coupling. Solder the whole thing up.

No matter what you do, you will most likely have to drain part of your system. It depends on what if any isolation valves were installed.

Chuck Shaw

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

If time is not the essence...

...give it a couple days. I'll be honest and say I've screwed with a joint over and over (that is BEFORE I STARTED TINNING LARGER TUBES) and still wind up with that terrible, slow, lazy drip.

Sometimes it stops (and seems to stay stopped indefinitely) sometimes it gets worse. If it stops I say "Thank God" and let it be; if it doesn't, I start cutting and removing...

If you can spare the time...

Paul_8

Hey hotrod,

Thanks for including the digital image of the saws and compression fitting!

In this particular case, the leak has occurred between two T-joints that were butted up against each other with about 1/8th inch of pipe between them. So I would not be able to use a compression fitting here. In fact, I'll have to disassemble several 3/4 inch branch lines to get this 1.25" supply line repaired. But hey, that was yesterday's problem. Last night the seam of a 12 foot cast iron baseboard began to leak heavily. That was the second time -- and second contractor that put that one together. The first time it cracked the cause was a break in one of the 6 foot segments, possibly caused by over-tightening the bolt. But I'm starting to wonder whether a 12 foot cast iron baseboard fed by copper lines is a recipe for failure. It's either that or the house is haunted!

hr

Expansion problem?

The cause could be no room for movement. Another idea is to get some JW Harris Blockade solder. Works more like a Silfos. I use a small tip on an oxy actylene torch. Lots of pinpoint heat from a small flame. Just solder right over the old soft solder joint with this stuff, without disassembling. Blockade is intended to be used this way. Melts a bit lower than the Silphos types of solder.

Look for some of those fabric heat cloths to keep from burning nearby wood products. Much better than a piece of sheet metal.

Find a refrigeration guy to help, maybe. They generally have the torch and skill needed to "high temperature" solder.

Silphos soldering will soften the tube and fitting and may help with any small movement problems.

Then again maybe some pex risers from the main to the baseboard would solve the problem

http://www.jwharris.com/blockade/

hot rod

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kevin_5

Liquid flux seems to help

Does anyone have any experience with this? When I occasionaly have to resolder something, I heat things up well, and then squirt on some of the liquid flux instead of paste, and it seems to me to be more aggressive and enters the joint readily really cleaning things up. The solder seems to really flow well this way. Kevin

Dave (Canada)

re-solder joints

Hi guys; First just to say great work for those of you who actually show dital pics of installs,tools and fittings.
Picuture is worth a thousand words.
I have a had great success in the past when re-soldering joints in hard to get at places and the water will just not stop dripping.
I have taken an air tank and blown out what I could, and also have gone straight to the bread trick.
Shove a few chunks of white or brown bread into the tube that is dripping (1 or 2 inches of bread) for a bad drip.
If you can, push the bread into the tube with a pencil so that you have time to reconnect and to re-solder, before the water comes thru the bread pieces.
Makes for a great dry joint and the bread simply disappears when you open up the taps.
Merry Christmas and Happy New to all.

zeb_3

Bread trick

if you do use the "bread trick" you don't need much. One time I told my brother to do it on a job, he crammed an entire hot dog roll in a 1/2" copper pipe. It took about 20 minutes for the water pressure to move it out. Then there was bread coming out the faucets, toilets, etc..........

Paul_8

Bread trick

Thanks Dave and Zeb. I have used the bread trick on occasion... sometimes could have used as much as a package of hot dog buns! when I was not able to completely shut off the water at the city's buffalo box.

But this set of leaks is a real challenge. The most difficult one is on the main supply line at a 90 degree joint on a 1.25" copper pipe. Water collects in the joint itself because it slopes down ever so slightly. The problem is I can't even budge it to get the water to drain out -- so I'd never be able to unsolder it. One guy suggested I tap in some kind of inline drain cock, if I didn't mind how it looked afterwards. Well, I still think the water would sit right in the 90 degree fitting, so it wouldn't work anyway.

Oh, by the way, my slow leak has turned into a faster leak. Fortunately, that is the one that is easiest to get to and unsolder to resolder with new fittings.

Boilerpro

I've had the same experience....

but have only tried it on new joints.

Boilerpro

hr

Drill a small hole

maybe an 1/8", in the bottom of the fitting, to drain the water. Then use the Blocade solder I mentioned, and a small welding tip. You can easily sloder over the hole and the old joints without any disassembling what so ever.

Practice soldering over an old joint in your shop to "get the feel" of working with the Blockade. It should be an easy fix if you plan it out well.

You might also tape your wet vac over the small drain hole to suck it dry.

hot rod

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Paul_8

Hotrod, You are full of excellent ideas --Thanks for all your help! Everybody on this Board has been so helpful, I'm really impressed!
I've never seen a board so quick and helpful since the early days of the Internet. I wonder if there is a board that specializes in concrete flooring questions!! I can handle all the carpentry and electrical stuff myself, but I really need some pro help with these types of plumbing jobs. I sure have learned a helluvalot more than I wanted to about running a separate hot water zone into the basement. (Should've fired the first contractor when I had to explain the need for diverter tees and why he should leave some room for expansion on a 35 foot run of copper pipe. And Yes, this guy did claim to be a licensed HVAC guy!)

Rich_2

Epoxy

There are alot of good two stage epoxys that can stop leaks that are still dripping , mix it together &stick it on !

Bill Barrett

solder joint

I agree with Hot Rod's plans! I wanted to tell you guys about job I was on couple years ago. We had to move baseboard in a remodel, cut out some piping noticed one joint had never been soldered! Job was over ten years old anyway. Joint was in a crawl so may have leaked at the start and stop but all I can tell you it was dry a a bone then. Was runnng at 10 psi. That sure as hell wouldn't work for me!!

ScottMP

We soldered this in the cieling of a garage apt. This held for over two years !!

Clean, clean, and more cleaning

Scott



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Cosmo

In our house....

We forgot to solder a fitting, the copper nipple was cut close (approx 1.5 inch X 1 inch copper L) and both joints were never soldered, one into a ball valve, the other into a reducing T. Well sixteen years later we replaced the water softener, and when I tried to turn off the main ball valve to start working the joint let go and I got soaked!!!!! That held against 70lb water pressure without a drip! My explanation is that we used Nokorode at the time, which quicky corroded the copper, and the joints were jammed down a little from the wieght of the potable water expansion tank above. I am just sorry that I didn't let my old man turn the valve....then I could have been the one laughing!!!


Casmo
Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

mp1969

Leave a bad joint?

> Will slow leaks (1 drip per minute) in soldered

> copper joints eventually seal themselves through

> oxidation? Or will the closed system of a boiler

> prevent that from happening?

>

> I will have to

> go after another leak that started a couple

> months after the contractor left. It is in a

> difficult spot that doesn't give me enough room

> to use a tube cutter for cutting 1.25" pipe. Can

> a sawzall be used if it will likely give me

> somewhat of an angled cut?





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mp1969

Leave a bad joint?

With today's litigation hungry consumers and probable future owners of this house I would highly recommend epoxies etc as only temporary fixes. Bite the bullet drain down the zone or system and pre-fab around the structural conflicts (this will allow you to field solder in an area that has more room and therefore safer)
Hot Rod's ideas are fine as far as silver soldering yet this requires greater heat and it sounds like you don't have enough room for safe (soft) soldering. Additives in the system have adverse effects on packings etc.
Flexible copper connectors have been around for years and can also be used for structural conflicts and as expansion compensators. Use better quality flex connectors as some are very thin and cheaply constructed!
I find that improper cleaning,fluxing and in soldering the thin walled hydronic piping and fittings there is a tendency to overheat.
Good luck we have all been there (Bread inside your hot water system?????? sounds like you may have the same result as over starching your underwear)

MP. 1969

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chris smith_2

slow leak

paul,
i don't know if this can help you in your situation or not but i have used thease alot, the key is to use a full port ball valve in conjuntion with the tool

http://www.brenelle.com/

the tool is jet swet hope this helps

chris smith

paradise porter maine