Sting Time: Bad Radiant Piping

Paul Pollets

KIRO TV in Seattle did an expose tonight on failures of radiant piping withing slab. I'm wondering if the pipe had an O2 barrier? Only kidding. Here's the best argument for not combining potable and non-potable systems. Dave Yates--this one's for you!!
The story can be read at the following link:

http://www.kirotv.com/consumer/1954263/detail.html

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Bill Clinton_2

Pex, Chlorine, Bio-film

Sure looks like the worry many of us had is today proved not imaginary. If this is what it looks like, look out! More is agonna be acomin.

Bill

Warmfoot

Paul

I didn't get to see the story....Were they all open systems?

Ernie Bogue
Master Hydronics LLC
PO Box 779
Keyport, WA 98345
(360) 394-2049

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Dave Yates (PAH)

linked, locked & loaded

Paul, I had bookmarked your link to the TV station last week & read the column in their web site this morning. I've e-mailed Bebe to determine if these were open systems. 180 degree water??? There are numerous oddities in her story & I've asked for clarafication. Also forwarded her link to Larry D for his reading.

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hot_rod

I'd be more

more suspecious of high chlorine content than high temps,especially in an open system. Why that temp in an open system? Plasco tube??

hot rod

Dave Yates (PAH)

That's

what I'm thinking too. Plasco's web site & information indicate they manufacture both potable & hydronic pex.

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Paul Pollets

This system

often uses fan coil convectors or toe kicks driven by a water heater, as well as with radiant floors at the same time. Thermostatic valves set the temps and the water heater is cranked to "high". A local radiant distributor popularized this method as "affordable radiant". I call it low tech crapola. Only the attorneys make a profit on this stuff. These methods need to be condemned by local code authorities as well as the RPA. Shall I hold my breath?

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Earthfire

plasco site

They be a UPONOR company(oops,was I supposed to say that) their site doesn't give much info as to pex grade or crosslinking method. In theory potable or hydronic tube should only differ in the use of oxygen barrier on pipe.Black water oozing out of the pipe would seem to indicate a closed system. Are the leaks occuring at fittings or is the pipe itself failing? Too many questions and not enough answers. Or here's a scarry question : Is the pipe old stock Polybutylyn that some enterprising rep or wholesaler pawned of on the contractor? The article is typical journalism 101: hitem with some quick factual statements but don't get specific!They tell the name of the contractor and the manufacturer but not the distributor.This'll be an interesting one to watch. Hope they came up with some real facts and explanations and not a sealed settlement for an undisclosed amount.

hot_rod

Instead of

holding your breath, do something about it

hot rod

KCA_2

I read the article

and it brings back memories of Entran II. I forwarded the article to the RPA and a nother Pex manufacturer for their comments. Also I'm calling Wirsbo to get thier opiion. A little scary.. I suppose the system sits idle and developes the sludge of what they are calling bactiria. Exactly why you don't design a system using domestic.. Although it is done a bunch! Especially in apartments.

:-) Kca

don rees

kiro story

i heard about this story and had a customer call to alert me to it and i read it online. yikes!... this hurts us all, but especially those of us in the puget sound, western washington area, to be sure.

by take.... just another one of the open systems run at top temp and with iron pumps and whatever was handy. This sounds like just another example of the 'quickie' systems sold off the net.... but we'll see as more info comes in, won't we.

we do need to, as generally/specific as possible, warn our potential clients of these types of systems.... or we all lose face. i try to on my website... as carefully, discretely and as specifically as possible.
don

Dave Yates (PAH)

Just got off the phone....

with one of the investigating folks. More details to follow, but these are indeed open systems utilizing gas fired potable water heaters.

It was only a matter of time.

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Duncan_2

All righty, then...

Looking forward to those details, Dave.

Doesn't the saying go, "The devil is in the details"?

It appears that designers of open systems that DON'T have these problems will need to get real proactive (not defensive), or proponents of closed systems will steamroll over them in a crushing wave of fear and loathing.

Or something like that. Just a guess.

Chris Maderia

My only problem with

the article is it's bashing of PEX in general. While the particular brand of PEX may have failed the information provided is inadequate for anyone to suggest that PEX tubing itself is an unreliable product. I'd like to hear how the plastic's engineer came up with the fact that the tubing itself was defective and/or the cause for the failure. Just from the basic information provided I would tend to lean on the installation as the major contributing factor. If anyone has more information on this I'd love to hear it.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Details & the devil

Information is as follows:

* 50 gallon gas fired water heaters with a 17,000 Btu cross-connected hydronic load. Yup, they're fully open systems. Seems that's allowed if the circs circulate at least 8 hours a day - every day. Thing is, they don't use the line voltage stats to turn on/off the circs - they're on 24/7, that's for the blowers in the 7 to 9 mini-hydro-air wall mounted units per condo. A summer kill switch exists for the hydronic side circulator of the open system. Geeze, guess no one knew the circs weren't cirking that 1/3 of a day evey day like the code mandates. Now there's a surprise. D'OH. Long periods of stagnation!

*Potable water lines must be installed by licensed plumbers in that area. Installers were not licensed plumbers - oops.

*Chlorine levels should be about 1.5 PPM.

*The supplier was not owned by Uponor at the time tubing was manufactured and sold.

*Hydro-air units in use may not be rated for potable use.

*Fire stop chemicals might be in contact with tubing at or close to some of the failed portions.

*They're considering Legionella testing.

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Bill Clinton_2

Experience with Plasco failure

Five or six years ago, apparently about the time the current topic tube was being installed, I installed an elaborate combination domestic hot water and radiant heating system. It had a complex mix of radiant floor, radiator and baseboard heaters. The heating was closed loop, separated from the potable with heat exchangers, however, the potable side had a very long 1" pex re-circ loop serving several buildings. It runs 160 degrees 24/7. (Appropriate tempering valves are in place.)

About two years after installation, a geyser erupted from one of the lines. It was in a trench outside, so luckily no damage was done. The tube had a small patch with multiple hair line cracks. The material was quite brittle, but only in this spot--about 1 square inch. I repaired it and put it back in service.

About 8 months later it happened again. Same appearance. Repaired again. Talked to someone at Plasco who sorta kinda acknowledged that sometimes "bad tube" got made.

Three years or so have passed and there have been no recurrences. Maybe the anti-oxidants didn't get mixed well before extrusion and there were just a coupla spots without.

That was the first and last time I did a high temp pex recirc line with hot chlorinated water.

Bill

Chris Maderia

Like I said below

the installation is the major contributer for the failure. How about KIROTV do a little research before jumping. In a way I'm glad this is in the NW vs here in NE. Think of all the hard work those reputable, licensed radiant contractors have invested in to promote their business in that area. All down the tubes because of TV ratings. Sorry state of affairs. Now let's see the Radiant Panel Association in action to help those members there fight back.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Send an e-mail to Bebe.

Chris,

I have e-mailed Bebe every day, starting on Tuesday, to keep her abrest of the conversations I've had with those involved in this fiasco. Yesterday, I suggested (in my e-mail) that she should be digging a bit deeper and I forwarded with that message a list of bulleted points. She has not responded.

I think she's either been spoon fed the info used in her story or that she's not a very good reporter. Cripes, if I can make a few phone calls from the other coast & get to the people involved, imagine how thorough someone could be that can devote more time and energy to the investigation. I told her that an entire industry is taking it on the chin as a result of her reporting and that her "facts" were not correct as reported.

The odds that they'll follow up with correct information after sensationalizing the distorted details and half truths - probably slim & next to none.

Why not go ahead and send her an e-mail. Not nasty, just encouraging her to report on what the facts actually were and are. If enough of you follow through, she might be prompted to visit the investigating contractors, lawyers, manufacturer, job sites and the problems. Here's her e-mail address. bemerman@kirotv.com

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joel_14

Holding my breath

> holding your breath, do something about it

> hot rod



I've been doing that with the RPA since it's inception. I don't enter my jobs in their contest as a form of protest. Several other high quality east coast contractors do the same. Many of us have considered leaving RPA altogether as the lack of standards and clear direction is sickening to us.
We do have our own seperate group here to try and do battle with the low end ,do it fast ,do it cheap, grow the industry, at all costs mentality that some contractors and the RPA have.
We have been very succesfull in doing that but it needs to eventually be a nation wide effort.
Step 1 instant ban on all tubing that can not meet European DIN standard as a heat tubing.
Step 2 instant ban nation wide on all systems using potable "open" distribution.
Step 3 Instant ban on any and all water heaters used as boilers that are not ASME stmped as a presuure vessel.
Step 4 Instant ban on systems using joist heating meaning a lack of transfer plates in all but the most southern states (Georgia?).
Step 5 work with consumer affairs of our states to attack and prosecute companies selling systems that don't meet these standrds. Esp compnies selling these systems to unsuspecting homeowners via the internet.

joel_14

Holding my breath

I've been doing that with the RPA since it's inception. I don't enter my jobs in their contest as a form of protest. Several other high quality east coast contractors do the same. Many of us have considered leaving RPA altogether as the lack of standards and clear direction is sickening to us.
We do have our own seperate group here to try and do battle with the low end ,do it fast ,do it cheap, grow the industry, at all costs mentality that some contractors and the RPA have.
We have been very succesfull in doing that but it needs to eventually be a nation wide effort.
Step 1 instant ban on all tubing that can not meet European DIN standard as a heat tubing.
Step 2 instant ban nation wide on all systems using potable "open" distribution.
Step 3 Instant ban on any and all water heaters used as boilers that are not ASME stamped as a presuure heating vessel.
Step 4 Instant ban on systems using joist heating meaning a lack of transfer plates in all but the most southern states (Georgia?).
Step 5 work with consumer affairs of our states to attack and prosecute companies selling systems that don't meet these standrds. Esp compnies selling these systems to unsuspecting homeowners via the internet.
Step 6 Instant ban on all sytems that don't use a weather responsive control under wood floors, or on any sytem over a couple hundred sqft.
Now how much longer do I have to hold my breath?

Chris Maderia

Hey I gotta good one

Let's say I installed 50 Cast Iron Boilers all radiant applications. The minimum return temp for the boilers is 140. But I pipe no by-pass and I run lower than 140 degree water. Shock and crack everyone of them. I guess the boiler casting is defective right? Just a thought.

Warmfoot

What about?

Just a thought....lets say the installing contractor bought ALL the material for this project at a time when the schedule was set for them to install it. Lets say the job gets delayed for an extended period of time. (This happens on big projects). What if that tubing was stored on a jobsite or storage area for 1 month....maybe 3 to 4 months? There is a potential for the UV to break down that tube....maybe quicker than most BECAUSE it is a PEX B Pipe. I have been thinking about this issue a lot and this may have been a factor in the installation. I would like to hear other opinions on this.


Ernie Bogue
Master Hydronics LLC
PO Box 779
Keyport, WA 98345
(360) 394-2049

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Terry

how willmanufacturer respond?

The response will no doubt be that the material was incorectly handled.
The Coils may have been left out in the sun prior to install.. this would be enough for the manufacturer to wash his hands.. no?

Terry