Welcome! Here are the website rules, as well as some tips for using this forum.
Need to contact us? Visit https://heatinghelp.com/contact-us/.
Click here to Find a Contractor in your area.
EFFICIANCY PAYBACK
Comments
-
Tony you have experience with industrial boilers so you should be familiar with how little information is provided with large equipment. Most large boilers tell you how much fuel or pressure to supply to the main regulator, but after that you are on your own. Have you ever clocked a meter? The instructions on one boiler I was on in the field with a contractor (400 HP) said lower the outlet gas pressure with the burner running until the flame goes out and this is the lowest to run it. Then raise the gas pressure until the flame goes out and this is the highest input to run it. Not particularly a safe thing to do in my book!! All burners and appliances are engines and vehicles. They all have their own personalities and mechanical capabilities. Factory specs assume all things are equal and that will never be the case. Anyone can fake numbers to make operation calculate high, but actual testing and measuring proves otherwise.0 -
This information have been presented to many authorities including AGA. They have a report that says barometrics are safer than drafthoods in the field. Having dealt with then and the oil industry for years, I have been told that when equipment is tested it is all tested under one set of conditions that does not verify or even attempt to indicate how it will operate in the field.
In the early 1980's many of the pieces of equipment that were being modified the manufacturer had already voided the warranty because of constant failure. After changes no failures ever re-occured and warranty wasn't never needed.
Contractors are the ultimate liability. Every court case I have ever been involved with, the contractor followed all rules, codes and manufacturers recommendations. They were found liable and paid the fine. We teach people how to stop equipment failures, but most important how to diagnose that that they exist in the first place. At the National Comfort Institute we do not mandate certain repairs, only that they are a proven option with 100% success rate. We have no problem with replacing equipment but as students quickly realize is a new set of concerns must now be addressed.0 -
You have no clue the fudge facters built into equipment.
Do you know that know atomospheric appliance (with drafthood) has never been tested to function on a flue taller than 5 feet verticle? That the current venting tables say you cannot use them if you have wind in your area? tight or loose building, other exhausting appiances,etc?
This is a great discussion!! It takes interaction like this to move forward and as I have discussed with Timmie in the past, if there isn't controversy nothing will ever change or be changed! Everyone has the opportunity to prove something right or wrong. Those that actually care will. Those that don't just argue!!0 -
Efficiencies are used as bait to get contractors to buy equipment. If we aren't totally committed to this consumers wouldn't know the difference.
When selling high efficiency equipment consumers should see 30%-50% reduction in fuel bills. Do you have documented records that verify this on every installation. If not then something is wrong with the installation or the equipment!!0 -
As Long As...
...you're working within factory specs for a given piece of equipment, I don't think there's a liability issue for you as the tech, or your company. I see specs and instructions periodically for some components that I don't like in high pressure steam or compressed air systems (for a variety of reasons), so I do my best to avoid buying and/or installing them.
Testing to verify performance is great - more people should do it, as opposed to just blindly assuming the stuff printed on the glossy advertising literature. Lots of people say and write lots of things that ain't necessarily so. I really like verifying things for myself, or getting the opinion of somebody I know & respect with expertise I don't have. (And there are LOTS of areas in which I have little or no expertise.)
The inspection authority here (Ontario) for fuel safety really tightened up the licencing requirements for anyone working with fuel. My understanding of the way things are now, is that the last licenced guy to see an installation that doesn't meet code is responsible for either A/ restoring it to code and/or manufacturer's spec's, or B/ shutting it down, and informing the inspection authority and fuel supplier. You could be a plumber with a gas fitters licence, and in a home repairing a water leak, with a furnace, water heater or boiler that neither you or your company had anything to do with selling, installing, servicing or modifying, and YOU are now responsible for leaving the gas appliances in a code compliant state, or shutting it down. I know a lot of older sheet metal/plumbing guys who have let their gas fitter's tickets expire without renewing them for this reason. Now there's shortage of gas fitters here.
The inspection folks really harped on "manufacturer's approved installation instructions" in the fuel safety update course. I think anyone doing this kind of work should really check with their local inspection people to determine what the local spin is. I wouldn't like to be caught between deviating from the manufacturer's written instructions, and leaving something that complies with those instructions, but is unsafe. To me, situations like that need to be brought to the attention of the manufacturer, and inspection authorities. I highly recommend email over other kinds of correspondence for matters like this. Almost instant, and a record of what was sent, who it was sent to, who sent it, time & date. PRINT a copy of what you send, and receive in reply, and file it.0 -
Your assumptions ...
are still flawed by the math. If you exchange a 75% EF furnace with a 90% EF furnace, and if the DHW is also gas and accounts for 50% of the gas consumption - the best you could do with the furnace upgrade is 7 1/2 % saving. Heat load stays the same - level of comfort stays the same. You might be able to put in a smaller furnace at a higher EF rating - but btu in still must equal btu out.0 -
\"Documented Evidence\"
Two of my very favourite words, combined into one of my very favourite phrases
Everyone needs to be careful not to brand every manufacturer or company with the same iron. Some manufacturers and other companies do not misrepresent their products or services. Some do, believing erroneously that what they're saying is true. These folks are simply mistaken, as opposed to being liars. Then there's the last group - the slime that KNOW what the true story is, and avoid it like the plague. They'll say anything, to anyone, in any way the feel necessary, to make the sale. There's enough of the last two groups to make you look at them ALL with a cautious eye. You can't really tell at first glance, who's who.0 -
I do not believe any manufacturer intentionally misrepresents or lies about a product. It is more the standards which even they are forced to follow that put them in this awkward situation. The standard people I have talked to over the years said it is just a way to compare apples to apples. Unfortunately is some cases it turns out to be lemons to lemons. That is what field testing is all about. I just hung up from a contractor in New York that said his code approved installation proved to be a potential life threatening situation for his own family. He was asked to document this in writing to NCI and sometime in the future we will make it available for all to read.0 -
The standards manufacturers are forced to follow are called code
Contractors are also required to follow them.
I can't understand why you don't get the code changed, rather than teaching breaking the law.
I ask you directly again, Jim.
Why does your concept not yet meet code?
If it is the truth and the way, why is it still against the codes that the people making a living in this trade must follow?
Until you follow the same procedures and laws everyone else has to follow to get code changed, this is headed for a serious confrontation someday.
Jim, I think we all know why the code won't change. It isn't in your plans to work hard together. You make some good points. You just do it in a confrontational manner that isn't in the best interests of anybody but you.
Get it approved. That's what scares people. Put your effort and money into righting what you feel is wrong. Get it in writing in OUR codebooks.
That's where you'll find out if you are helping or hindering progress. Keep in mind that I'm not discussing CO, here. I'm discussing following the rules about getting codes changed.
And, Jim, please answer the questions, this time. I've read your rambling already. Can you get your methods approved in North America? That would be a benefit to your students.
Noel0 -
Let's see. This information has been presented to ASHRAE, NHAW, AGA, DOE, ACCA, RSES, QSC, Code Enforcement Associations, Insurance Industry just to name a few. Want to know what Canadian Groups have also been given this information? The same answer is always given-Its the way its always been done-why change. No one wants responsibility or liability. If after 20 years any of this had been proven wrong, wouldn't there already be serious trouble? Any code changes that have been made in the last twenty years have catered to manufacturers wishes to get equipment on the market. Gas ovens are allowed to dump 800ppm of CO in living spaces because it has been determined on paper that all homes have 4 air changes an hour?? Does anyone know how anything ever gets changed unless there is a confrontation or lawsuit? It is a shame that lawyers are the main benefactors of everyone's ignorance!0 -
That's my point exactly
It has been presented, and it has not been approved. Is that what you mean?
Noel0 -
I think
he answered the question.
It has been presented and it has not been approved.
Now for the next question.
Why hasn't it been approved?
I have been to just about every manufacturers "training" and I have never heard any of them speak about any of this, NOT ONE.
So far I heve seen Mr.Davis's teaching referred to as "magic" and and his classes as "dog and pony shows".
I have yet to see him respond in kind so I have to wonder about who is being confrontational.
Manufacturers of HW boilers used to send their goods with the circs mounted on the return and their piping diagrams showed them pumping toward the expansion tanks. "Been that way for a hunert years sonny" but it was WRONG for a hundred years.
Unless a manufacturer's rep is standing in the basement with me and understands the testing that is being done, what qualifies them as the expert? Just because they work there?
I see some tempers flair whenever MR.Davis posts something that flies in the face of "tradition". I like that. It keeps us fresh.
But no more name calling or I'm calling the Sheriff!!
Oh that's right! Sheriff Murph just finished Mr.Davis's combustion and CO course.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Effects of flame temp
Wouldn't it be true that radiant heat transfer may not necessarily be reflected in SSE readings nor AFUE ratings.
A lower O2 reading represents a higher flame temp and as a result more radiant heat transfer.
A difference between a 25% excess air (4.5% O2) and a 20% excess air (4.0% O2) represents a 200+ increase in flame temperature. In Jims example, the difference between a 14% O2 (180% EA) and an 8% O2 (55% EA) would raise flame temp 600
degrees or so.
I understand that radiant heat transfer is 10 times more effective in transferring heat than conduction. How could an increase in radiant heat production not improve heat transfer?
Less dilution air raises the stack temperature which SSE calculations interpret as more heat loss as opposed to less diluted flue gases. As O2 readings drop, SSE goes up, but I dont think mathematical calculations can accurate measure something as complex as fire and heat transfer just based on just two variables, an O2 reading and net stack temp
Just some thoughts, Id be interested in any comments.0 -
My Experience...
...is that there is always a certain percentage of those that will play fast and loose with the facts as long as they think they won't get caught. I'm talking in general terms, not boiler/furnace/burner manufacturers in particular. If what some (note that I'sm saying "some") manufacturer's and/or their reps (or any product line) are saying isn't sometimes an outright fabrication, then in many cases it's a lie of omission, or intentionally presenting something so as to be perceived as something entirely different, by the potential customer.
Someplace in the boiler/furnace/burner industry, somebody is busy falsifying test data, quietly re-labelling offshore parts as domestically produced, failing to disclose that assembly of a particular product has been moved to Bolivia, etc. Not all "used car salemen" sell used cars.
Keep your head up, your eyes open, and your elbows up in the corners. Not everybody plays by the rules.0 -
Forgot to put this in all caps: NO ONE WANTS RESPONSIBLILTY OR LIABILITY!! Everyone wants to pass the buck. Well the buck stops here and I will never hide from the truth. Like I don't know after 25 years the obstacles one must face to create change.
According to the ANSI Standard and AGA Labs your boiler(I assume that based on your E-mail) is not certified or tested to work under normal field conditions. How do you address this as a company or do you recommend we check with someone else-local authority having jurisdiction, etc.? I direct this question to all manufacturers-this is not a personal attack and don't take it that way-as you say-answer the question.0 -
I will answer your question directly
We strive to meet all codes and laws in effect. We strive to pass all tests required by law.
Now may I remind you that I don't fault any of your tests, results, or conclusions. I have said so already.
Our product is heating many buildings legally. If the conclusions that you have reached were to become law, I would stand behind them beside you. That there are safe ways to do things in this field that are not yet accepted by code is beyond debate.
I still strive to follow the law. My only point is that. I also have pointed that out without criticizing any of your methods. You do understand that by now, I'm sure. I have no problem with your conclusions.
Noel0 -
Never know what question will stir up a good interaction. I guess the biggest difference is that what we try to promote is verification of performance and when something is legal but unsafe, I believe each individual must be knowledgeable to take things into their own hands rather than always looking for someone else to blame. When Code accepted Venting or Combustion Air make a job more dangerous corrections must be made. I don't believe tuning equipment based on actual conditions violates manufacturers recommendations. I believe our industry should police itself not be controlled by outsiders. It is discussions like this that will carve the way for the future. Having posted on other web sites, yeah I create similar reactions, this one seems to have the most subscribers that actually care and are willing to learn.0 -
simplify
I just spent over an hour reading this thread and did some googling to define all of these efficiency terms stated above. It seems that several of them mean exactly the same thing.
AFUE (Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency) -- A measure of heating efficiency, in consistent units, determined by applying the federal test method for furnaces. This value is intended to represent the ratio of heat transferred to the conditioned space by the fuel energy supplied over one year. [See California Code of Regulations, Title 20, Section 1602(d)(1)]
THERMAL EFFICIENCY - The efficiency of a boiler, based on the ratio of heat absorbed to total heat input. This does not include heat loss from the boiler shell.
STEADY STATE EFFICIENCY - A performance rating for space heaters; a measure of the percentage of heat from combustion of gas which is transferred to the space being heated under specified steady state conditions. [See California Code of Regulations, Title 20, Section 1602(e)(13)]
RECOVERY EFFICIENCY -- (Thermal efficiency) Ia water heater, a measure of the percentage of heat from the combustion of gas which is transferred to the water as measured under specified test conditions. California Code of Regulations, Section 2- 1602(e)(7).
All of the above, with the possible exception of of AFUE mean EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The ratio of energy going up the stack versus energy available to the distribution system. AFUE is also the same ratio, but it is performed under unified testing methods and averaged over time so that the playing field is level for all test subjects.
Combustion Efficiency
Under ideal conditions (assuming complete combustion of the fuel with no heat loss), a kilogram of fuel will theoretically release an energy Et. The combustion efficiency is then the ratio between the energy actually released (Er) and this theoretical energy per kilogram of fuel (Et), or Er/Et. .
COMBUSTION EFFICIENCY - The effectiveness of the burner to completely burn the fuel. A well designed burner will operate with as little as 10 to 20% excess air, while converting all combustibles in the fuel to useful energy.
COMPLETE COMBUSTION - The complete oxidation of all the combustible constituents of a fuel
I was unable to find a meaning for System Efficiency, but I would define it as the ratio of heat delivered to the space by the distribution system verses heat lost in transit from the heat source to the heat load.
AFUE assumes that all of the heat transfered to the distribution system is used to perform the desired task. The rest of the buzzwords that I grouped with AFUE are unconcerned about where the heat goes, they just know that it didn't go up the stack so YOU got to use it. If YOU use it poorly it certantly is not the boiler's fault.
Lets se if I understand what I have been reading.
When you stick your tester into the flue you are measuring quantities of combustion products at that place in the line. You get an O2, CO, and temp readout. High end units can sniff for unburned fuel, NOx, SOx, and who knows what else. If the O2 is above zero then you have enough air for combustion, but too much air and you blow all the heat (or fire) out before the distribution system can get it. Plus too much air results in cooler flame and lower delta T between the fire and the heat exchanger. So you want to keep the O2 reading pretty low, but above zero so that you can get a reading in the first place and have some margin for normal variances. CO is the same way. High CO means lousy combustion, but again you need some room to allow for normal fluctuations in fuel and air flow. If you set up a burner to produce absolute max Combustion Efficiency by minimizing CO and O2, you can't garantee that those conditions are going to exist 100% of the time (probably not even 50%). Normal changes in weather, ventilation, humidity, fuel, etc will get you.
Now if you set up the burner to allow some margin of error for these parameters so that SAFE OPERATING CONDITIONS EXIST FOR ALL REASONABLE CONDITIONS, then you can sleep at night knowing that you aren't going to kill anyone. I would bet that the manufacturers who make this equipment are rather concerned when it comes to public safety. Even if they really only care about money, killing people with your product will never be cost effective. For this reason all products come with specifactions as to acceptible limits of operational parameters. They warn you IN BIG LETTERS not to violate these conditions. Doing so voids warranty, liability, performance claims, etc.
Mr. Jim Davis,
As a home owner with a family I ask you to please stop teaching over-gassing to your students. Setting the fuel pressure to any value other than the that required by the published manufacturer's specification constitutes unsafe operating conditions and poses a severe health risk to me and my loved ones. The thought that many contractors might believe your theories and proceed to perform these dangerous practices on unsuspecting clients nation wide fills me with a fear that I can't even articulate.
Our government has expended vast resources to protect public safety. We as citizens cannot expect to always agree with the decisions that our government makes for us, but we are expected to go through proper channels when we want to effect change.
Sincerly,
Eric Taylor0 -
Mr. Taylor
Do not know what your occupation might be, but your experience(not knowledge) in this field looks like zero. California did not write the rules. They just have a bunch of people in Hollywood that try to change them. Anyone that can only promise proper operation 50% of the time better be a weatherman or economist. There are zero requirements in the codes to safety check equipment. Over 95% of all equipment installed has never had a proper safety test,nor is it required by the government. So I guess by teaching that this should be mandatory I am breaking the law. Combustion effiency is an assumption of energy produced under ideal conditions. Et assumes the flame temperature is 3500 degrees on natural gas, an impossibility in the real world. Also the hotter the flame or the more perfect the combustion or the more efficient the burn, the higher the NOX. Which state has a regulation against this? There is a report from a California test lab(EPRI) that proved NOX was not the problem it was theorized to be, but it is still a stupid regulation. I teach people how to break this one to! When you take your car in for a tune up do you make sure it won't get more mileage than the government said is allowed because that would be breaking the law? 25 years of researching how things evolved and then applying them in the field on over 50,000 installations kind of reveals what is right and what is wrong and that is not a theory!! Having worked with AGA Labs I know exactly how efficiency testing is performed and it is not according to your definitions. In a report prepared by AGA its states that to prove equipment can operate unsafe in the field the ANSI Standard for testing would have to be exceeded. When there are laws that specifically state that it is illegal to teach real safety and real efficiency I will cease to do so. I have my eye on Hollywood!0 -
Mr. Davis
Overfiring above the approved rating is still illegal. It WILL void the warranty on our equipment.
Until you effect changes to the law, that will not change. Regardless of how you feel, and what you teach, you are still advising against following the law.
The law is in place to protect people from misinformation. Until your methods are approved, gas appliances with draft hoods must not be altered.
By the way, the code is written by the National Fire Protection Association. I'm insulted that you express that they are a group of manufacturers. I think you mistake them for GAMA, the Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association; or perhaps I=B=R, the Institute of Boiler and Radiator manufacturers.
I don't know where Hollywood comes in, and I don't know where you fit in, but none of US are writing code, but you.
And you have not had your rules accepted.
There IS a safty inspection in the code already. It's in the appendices, Jim. It requires that the venting system work. It is the service agency's responsability already, Jim. You didn't make it that way, it already exists.
I still say that you have a lot to contribute to making the codes safer. I still think that some of what you teach will shorten the life of the equipment, as well as putting people at risk. I say at risk, because your methods directly oppose the code.
And the NFPA rejects your methods, thus far.
If you are correct in your methods, you are AGAIN in the wrong forum, until you can become effective in changing the lawe.
Jim, what is your motivation?
You've commented on everyone else's qualifications.
Do you install or service equipment? Do you manufacture or sell equipment? Do you work on heating equipment installed on location for heating purposes whatsoever? Are heating customers paying you for any part of the work done on that equipment?
Or are your dollars coming out of the tradesmen themselves. The ones required to follow the law. The ones that can be sued, if they follow your instructions.
I say once again. Follow the codes, people. Overfiring equipment is what voids your warranty. Jim mentioned taking responsability. Call him, once you vary from the manufacturer's instructions.
Just what do you mean, you take responsability? In what way?
And don't question my background again, until you answer some of the questions that trouble me, and others here, that have already been asked.
Yes, I do work for Slant/Fin. I also have other experience to call on in this trade. I feel I am as qualified as any other person on this board to question your methods.
This site is set up for homeowners to ask questions. You owe Mr. Taylor an apology. He is following forum rules, like the rest of us.
He isn't twisting answers nor is he asking bad questions.
Until you follow through with getting legally approved to alter draft hoods and overfire equipment, you are flat wrong to teach those methods on any equipment other than that which you manufacture or install. Your responsability ends there. NFPA still applies, and has apparently rejected your process completely.
I don't know why, because I haven't looked into your methods. I don't disagree with any of your testing, measuring, and adjusting methods. They just aren't acceptable to the AHDs in the United States, yet. I don't know why your methods are unacceptable to NFPA. But they are unacceptible.
I don't know why you keep debating saftey and CO testing methods to us, here. Our hands are tied until you follow through with NFPA. Get it done, Jim, and come back.
Noel
0 -
Well said, Noel
I haven't run into much overgassing here in Baltimore, but the ones I have seen were scary. One of them was a Slant/Fin steamer, and I know you would not have backed the overgasser if something had gone wrong. And you would be right to not do so.
Those of us engaged in the business of designing, manufacturing and distributing quality heating equipment really put themselves on the line every time a new unit is installed. This willingness to do so, and the effort put into making sure the equipment works as specified, deserves a great deal of respect- the same as a well-run manufacturer gives to those of us in the field who install their gear.
To arbitrarily throw out the manufacturer's specifications is not only insane, it shows a lack of respect for all those people who have done their best to make their gear as good as it can be. One need only look at a mis-piped steam boiler that "never ran right" to see an example of this.
Now I don't have nearly as much experience testing boilers as some of my esteemed colleagues on the Wall, but I've NEVER seen a boiler that produced less CO when it was overgassed. From what I can tell on the ones I've seen, overgassing led to impingement which actually raised the CO. In EVERY case I've seen, returning to the manufacturer's specified BTU input caused the CO to go down. This is what we're after, and the information needed to get there has always been right there on the label.
And if one of us sets up a boiler to the manufacturer's specs and it still isn't right, we have a whole group of people we can call on. If it's a Burnham, Glenn Stanton is there to help. If it's a Slant/Fin, Noel and Steve are. If it's a Smith, there's Bob Flanagan. If it's a Weil-McLain, Bill Wright is there. If it's a Dunkirk, it's Tom Gdaniec. If it's- well, you get the idea. I have seen that these people are committed to solving whatever problems arise in the field. But if I were one of them and someone contacted me about a bad boiler the first thing I'd ask is- "Is it set up to our specifications?". Because if not, I couldn't guarantee that it would run properly and safely.
Having listened to both sides of this issue, I have to stand with Timmie, Noel and the rest. Jim, that doesn't mean I'll stop listening to your side. I even hope to take your class one of these days, as I also hope to take Timmie's classes. But from what I have seen, overgassing is a hazardous practice, and is not needed to produce acceptably low CO levels.
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Rudy, your post of
Feb 1, 7:02 pm. So many posts I have to give it some identity.
That post has been my approach to combustion for many years. That as we increase or decrease O2 we change efficiency. As we reduce O2 we increase flame temperature which in turn will increase heat transfer. In the process the velocity of air moving through the unit is affected. The bigger the package the more the velocity. The ability to hold BTU in the furnace or boiler and cause heat transfer to whatever meduim is what it is all about. With conversion burners we would have the flexibility to put baffles in the many passes of boilers to slow down or retard flue gas velocity. The recirculation of flue gases for more absorption is what has brought us to 90 + equipment. I have never really however believed nor have I taught that 80+ or 90+ equipment is actually that overall efficient as to actual heat transfer to medium (air or water) At the same time working with in the safe perimeters of combustion safety (low CO). We can in fact as you know get on the wrong side of the curve. We would have high CO2 flame would look good (blue flame) but we would be making CO because of a lack of excess air.
The dilution air example is why on many conversion burner installations we used to put a "neutral pressure point adjuster " in the flue or in some cases it was better to use a draft regulator for more accurate control of dilution air. I was one who felt that the NPP adjuster worked better on the chimney side of draft hood or draft regulator. All the books showed it on the inlet side of the draft hood. We at the same time wanted to be very careful of the "dew point" and possibility of condensate. That all makes sense to me.
Here is my problem, when it comes to design gas equipment we have very little that code or manufacturers instructuions allow us to do. That has frustrated me for years. I did a lot of experimenting in the lab at the gas company but could not get any further than that as the gas company followed code to the letter. They also would not go against manufacturers instructions. We could not go out into the field and make changes. We followed the installation and start up procedures for residential and commercial gas equipment. We worked as best we could to keep the equipment SAFE, that was number one sometimes to the detriment perhaps of overall efficincy. Combustion efficiency was what we measured.
I am very interested in what National Comfort Institute is promoting. I really would like them to tell us how they do it (the mechanics of how it is done) what do they adjust? Is their a pattern? If they will do that maybe some of us will join them in attempting to bring about change. You and I both know sometimes that is a life time endeavour. My motto "PATIENT BUT PERSISTENT". I can be a real pain with questions and will keep asking until I get an answer.
My approach to education is to put it in writing (manuals) put it out there and let it be judged. We live in a free country maybe National Comfort Institute can take their solutions put them in print and make them avaialble to all of us to evaluate. I for one will buy them (nothing is free). Then they will not be all alone on this campaign they are on to make change. Seminars and classrooms are great and I am all for them, that is how I make a living. I for one must however sit down in the quiet of my office and rethink what I heard in the seminar or classroom. The written word on the subject becomes my reference. It is a typical behavior to go to a seminar and come back all fired up and want to change the world. It is then very frustrating when the world refuses to change. I will not get up in front of any one and teach until I know my subject matter inside out. I really want to learn but am having a hard time understanding some of what National Comfort is saying it is sort of jumbled around and I need some straight forward content. I am a slow learner but once I learn look out.0 -
Mark I will try
to explain the word "magic" as I used it. To many of us who have not had the privlege of sitting in a NCI class it is "magic" perhaps not the slight of hand stuff we usually identify as magic. It is "magic" because it may bring forth something we have not seen or heard before.
Now let me explain "Dog and Pony Show" and by the way that was not directed at Jim Davis or NCI. It was directed at the typical type of training that is sometimes done to promote products or equipment. NCI to the best of my knowledge does not promote any product. The short presentations I sat in on at Comfortech 2002 were very well done and do not fit that label.
I am not against what NCI is promoting (safe and efficent combustion). Let us get that straight once and for all. I simply find that the procedure to bring about change is in question. As much as all of us would like to rid the world of pain, suffering and danger it is an up hill battle. The Carbon Monoxide War is a tough one and it is sad that the only time people listen is when there has been an incident. I have been dealing with this for years. It is up to all of us to educate everyone about this. I actually carry my tester out with me on social visits to friends and neighbours homes and businesses. I welcome you to the fight, your passion is wonderful.
It is my experience that folks like NCI eventually get someones ear. Hey, they sure have got everyone on the Wall involved, as far away as our Canadian friends. We are all litening and learning as we go. When you have been doing something for a long time and it works, or at least you thought it was, new ideas and changes come hard. Be patient with the rest of us we are listening and learning.
There is nothing personal directed at NCI or Jim Davis in all of this. He is perhaps a pioneer. Read some of Dans books about the early pioneers of steam some of them died testing and trying to find safe ways to make steam work.0 -
I guess Eric got his moneys worth on efficiency. This discussion has gotten a bit beyond that. My students are just sitting back and watching as everyone confirms what is taught in class. This is the only industry you don't have to have any field experience to be an expert. But hopefully those that think that I am trying to destroy things will actually go out and prove it for fact. I tell my students in class I don't want them to believe anything that is taught, but rather go out and prove it right or wrong. When every CO poisoning or death comes from people following the way things have always been done, it is time for change. And for the record every appliance that I have investigated in court cases that caused injury was set at factory fuel pressure specs or less. Code approved venting, combustion air and manufacturers recommendations were responsible for the majority of problems. I apologize for not being able to convince people the only goal intended is to make things right, but to date this knowledge in only shared by our students.0 -
about overgassing
I do servicing , you scare the begeezes out of me, you actually think by walking in ,Jim, do your little ditty -prove your smarter than the rest of us - and leave ! job well done ! then little Susie wants a kitty cat, have you ever scene what a hair ball can do when it lands inside an air shutter - think about what little it would take to make you overgassing extremely dangerous, I've seen a 2$ piece of weather stripping,reverse a chimney, overgas the boiler in these conditions and make co that much faster!!! do you give all your customers instructions , no pets ,weather stripping , kids , or simply any change to your dwelling -I'm not resposible ,disclaimers etc. think about what other factors come into play - tolerances , and god forbid -death ! All we want from you is , you,ve built your better mouse trap- get it approved, or all your installs come with a no pets allowed sign . Just an average tech !0 -
Timmie hits it..........
thank you sir,
" We can in fact as you know get on the wrong side of the curve. We would have high CO2 flame would look good (blue flame) but we would be making CO because of a lack of excess air. "
I have been following these post very closely, and have not jumped in as for my lack of wanting to get blasted by one sided thinking !!
these discussions and accusations are very negative in the sense that they are concentrating on one or two efforts being used as a last resort to make a problem situation go away. I have heard arguements about manufactors specs, then to say go with local jurisdiction, hell in my area there is a resemblance to the wild west!! Anything goes till something happens, sheesh!! I have been around all this stuff for a long time and by no means do i think I will ever be 100% Qualified to Work on everything out there, but let me add, nor do i believe that 1/3 of the folks doing this stuff in my area even have a clue. Pretty scary when you start to think about it!!
The funny thing is the manufactors will let anyone willing to spend the cash buy thier products with no certification or training, Get real here, this is nothing more than wanting to sell the most equipment by whatever means possible. this should be NUMBER ONE rule to live by "ABSOLUTLEY NO SALES TO ANYONE THAT DOES NOT MEET TRAINING AND CERTIFICATION". We know what the problems are,
now we need to cure them !!
Anybody willing to install and service these systems without a full knowledge and background of what is happening within the combustion ,venting and controls are probaly the most dangerous there is, I have seen questions raised and answered here to folks that should not be messin with these systems, and refuse to spend the money to get it done right!! By knowledgable people in the trades those to me are much more scary then adjusting gas pressure to make sure there is proper combustion (UP OR DOWN !!!)And i am willing to bet the way the manuals are written absolves all the manufacters of any liability no matter who is putting in these systems.
We need to educate home buyers and builders of potential dangers. I for one will never again leave an existing situation alone because the owners were not willing to cure the problems that exist !!
Murph' (SOS)
(Timmie expect my eml soon)0 -
you gotta.....
post these with a name and isp. otherwise you have ABSOLUTLY no credibility whatsoever (imho) too bad for the cowards !!
Murph'
(besides if you knew what you just said, there is more of an arguement for doing the proper testing, geeze flaming before you have a clue of what the situation you describe is really causing the problem)0 -
I would like to know
how many of the pros that post on this site actually test the equipment they install.
I would also like to know how many manufacturers detail in their installation instructions THEIR recommended testing procedures, and THEIR recommended operational parameters.
I have yet to see anyone refute Mr.Davis's claims with proof and he has never waivered in his devotion to what he has seen with his own eyes.
I'll tell you what is really scary. Believing that every piece of equipment that comes out of the box is set to run and requires no testing! And there are a hell of a lot of people that believe that!
Most of the heating companies around here do not even own a CO analyzer. They don't think it's important to test "brand new" equipment! The manufacturer test fires each and every unit before they ship it, right? And every home in America is exactly the same, right? And every home in America is exactly like "the factory", right?
I know you don't believe that Noel.
I keep seeing the word "legal" coming up here, well it used to be legal to own slaves. We had a war to end all that. Hopefully this issue will not come to that!!(WINK WINK!!)
I test EVERY SINGLE home that I enter. I test EVERY SINGLE piece of equipment I encounter. I never did that before I met Jim Davis. To date we have found dozens of units in homes that were slowly killing the inhabitants. We have found even more that were functioning so improperly as to be unbelievable. In every instance we could not find any mention of operating parameters in the instruction manual, if they were even availble. Calls to the manufacturer were less than helpful because they did not want to get involved other than to tell me what the "factory" specs were. Maybe someone can tell me why "factory specs" are almost NEVER listed in the installation manuals?
We see some pretty old equipment out here too. What do you think the odds are of some one at Trane remembering what a direct return trap is? Not combustion related I know but I'll never forget that phone call!!
How am I supposed to know the qualifications of the person I am speaking to at "the factory"? And how is that person supposed to know how every system will operate in every situation? Homes are systems. Each one is different, and subsequently, each mechanical system will perform differently. But unless you are testing you won't know.
If the "manufacturers settings" are always correct, why bother making them adjustable? Why not weld those little caps shut so crazy people can't play with the gas pressure? That oughta fix it.
I would leave you all with this challenge.
Provide one instance where a boiler or furnace or water heater manufacturer was ever held liable for a CO death.
I been looking and can't find one.
Best wishes!!
Mark H
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Efficiency and usable output
I size my boilers very tight to calculated heat loads and use the Doe heating capacity as my base for sizing. If a boiler rated at 96,000 in and 80,000 out is used in a home with a 80,000 load, wouldn't you think that if the efficiency of this equipment was considerably lower than the published data that I would have lots of undersized equipment problems? With some of the info. above posted by Mr. Davis that some of these units (mostly draft hood equipped) are actually only operating at 55% efficiency, I should have lots of undersized boilers. I know nearly all load calculations tend to be conservative, but I have only had one installation not meet or exceed my calculated performance in the 8 years I have been in the boiler business (construction was modified without telling me). Just a none technical observation on this technical discussion.
Boilerpro0 -
All the mouse traps were built before I was born, but the equipment to make sure they really worked has only been available for 15-20 years. All the variances you discuss are absolutely critical and we teach that any outside interference with equipment operation must be addressed everytime we are on the job. Like anyone needs pets, clothes dryers provide all the obstruction you ever need.0 -
Boiler output
Actually it is not draft hood equipment that I said is operating at 55%, but mostly induced draft. Unfortunately we find drafthood equipment operating with 80%-90% efficiencies which menas they are not venting. In the NCI class we teach rusting is caused 99.99% of the time from improper venting. What percentage of equpment in the field has rust on it?0 -
Timmie,
It's a "Bird and Baby" Show. The way to create change it to present information to as many people as possible for evaluation. When the numbers are great enough the change will be made. We choose to be the presenters and hopefully our students the changers. Yes we do ruffle a few feathers and poop in a few diapers.0 -
Mr. Davis
You really are very entertaining.You actually go about changing all this designed and tested gas equipment because of coarse the manufacturers dont know what they are doing.So lets change gas pressure ,draft,excess air,dampers,shutters,oh yeah lets paint it a different color and that will make it more efficiant.If you would just answer some of Timmie's questions directly it would be greatly appreciated.Oh well i guess you will go on entertaining us.0 -
Mr Davis
I have been following this post very closly and have even printed it and read it slowly to better understand what is being said. I have a great deal of respect for many that post on this site and you appear to be very knowledgable on the subject matter.
That being said ..
"When every CO poisoning or death comes from people following the way things have always been done, it is time for change."
I am one of the thousands of installers who follow manufactures specs and codes. I have just started ( thanks to this site ) to test our equipment. I have yet to have an issuie when I follow the codes and spec. I have yet to read a story about a family death that says " The brand new equipment just installed was set up to code and manufacturers specs."
"And for the record every appliance that I have investigated in court cases that caused injury was set at factory fuel pressure specs or less. Code approved venting, combustion air and manufacturers recommendations were responsible for the majority of problems."
Could you please post at least two different specific locations and situations where this happened and what was wrong to cause an injury ?
This site has improved my knowledge greatly. I look forward to your answers to help me further my knowledge and safty of my customers.
I understand that you teach a class and all of this cannot be taught in one response, but just those two answers would help.
Thank You.
Scott
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Rusting
Most of the rusting I see in draft hood boilers is found when they are not operating at proper temperature...above 117 F min water temp. or when electronic ignition is used in very damp surroundings... condensation forms in the summer when equipment is not used. Excessively low water temps, no doubt, cause draft problems, but does not appear to be the cause. Its curious that you find induced draft equipment running so inefficient. I would expect thethe combustin to be much more controlled under this circumstance. Any pattern of lower efficiencies found in hot air furnaces versus boilers!
Boilerpro0 -
Any pilot can cause rusting, I agree. I was referring most to major rusting of burners, heat echangers, flue pipes etc.
Never found low water temperatures to be a factor or domestic hot water heaters would be a problem. Have recommended boiler reset down to 105 degrees on the low side or lowest limit before firing burner. no problem in venting, combustion air and fuel are correct. Induced draft boilers have similar problems as furnaces, but more limited to certain makes not all. Will not use makes of equipment because they might be the only ones anyone tests and we want all units checked.0 -
Actually I can sight hundreds but I am on the road right now and will try to give a few tomorrow.0 -
Manufacturers
Answer the question, Manufacturers feel special because they are big, rich, and arogant.0 -
Manufacturers
Answer the question, Manufacturers feel special because they are big, rich, and arogant.0 -
That would be great
Thank You
Scott
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.2K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 52 Biomass
- 422 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 90 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.4K Gas Heating
- 99 Geothermal
- 156 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.4K Oil Heating
- 63 Pipe Deterioration
- 915 Plumbing
- 6K Radiant Heating
- 381 Solar
- 14.8K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 53 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 47 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements