Flux

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of the time it's an overheat problem. The burn point of water soluable flux is very, very close to the melt point of the solder. If the flux turns black you went to far, start over.

Practice is the key :)

hot rod

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Dan m_2

Flux

I have Been soldering 1" copper Boiler piping in my home. I Ran out of Flux so I got some "water rinse Flux" at the plumbers supply. I used it for a while and when I filled the system I had more leaks than the White House. I went back to the stuff in the Red tin and it works alot better ( Which i think i read here on this sight) Are their any tricks to soldering pipe this Big. I heat it till the flux boils then feed solder. Most of the leaks are little voids or incomplete flow. It seem hard to get a pipe this big hot enough

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

One inch copper

shouldn't be a problem. You're doing something wrong, i.e. not cleaning the pipe properly, perhaps not using good flux, not evenly heating the pipe.

Don't be afraid to ask a plumber; they'll show you how.

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Dan m_2

Even heat

I clean the pipe real good with emery cloth and then the inside of the fitting with a brush on my drill. I flux both peices. How do you apply the heat when you solder ? Do you use any special ends on the torch or just the standard strait tip? Do you move the torch much or try to keep it in one place. Do you use the hotter buring Mapp gas or propane. For the most part I get good joints and thay are definatly improving with practice.

Thanks
Dan

Mike T., Swampeast MO

It's slow

but since I started tinning tube and fittings 1" and over haven't had a single leak--even one where I had to use a short length of soft "K" tube for an offset and the end was a bit deformed. Was certain that one would leak but dry as a bone.

Despite careful cleaning/fluxing there are STILL areas--particularly on the tube--that just don't "take" the solder the first time. You have to re-clean & flux. I'm certain those are the problem areas that show up as leaks when I do it "normally."

Even experimented on a 3" and was able to make a very nice looking joint. Just used two plain torches to assemble. Wasn't able to test as this was scrap tube and an old fitting from an auction.

Scott22

Water Soluable Flux

Scott22

Water Soluble Flux

Went to a seminar recently where a rep from the Copper Developement Association was explaining why we should use water soluble flux. He explained that ASTM B813 required that grease based fluxes are no longer legal (like lead based solder). He showed samples of what these fluxes will do to copper tube over time.
The rule has been on the books for some time now. The question is how do they enforce it. He told us of inspectors that actually have the plumber cut out a section of pipe and slice it open to look for traces of solder. Scary!
He also said that the flux manufacturers are bringing out a second generation (sounds like 1.6 flush wc's) of water soluble fluxs that don't burn so close to the melting point of solders. CDA feels that if water soluble flux works as well as what we're used to under normal conditions, people will stop buying grease based fluxes and there will be less lawsuits concerning pipe failure.

Scott22

Water Soluble Flux

Went to a seminar recently where a rep from the Copper Developement Association was explaining why we should use water soluble flux. He explained that ASTM B813 bands grease based fluxes(remember lead based solder). He showed samples of what greased based fluxes will do to copper tube over time, especially on the cold side. Pretty guresome!
The rule has been on the books for some time now. The question is how do they enforce it. He told us of inspectors that actually have the plumber cut out a section of pipe and slice it open to look for traces of solder. Scary!
He also said that the flux manufacturers are bringing out a second generation (sounds like 1.6 flush wc's) of water soluble fluxs that don't burn so close to the melting point of solders. CDA feels that if water soluble flux works as well as what we're used to, under normal conditions, people will stop buying grease based fluxes and there will be less lawsuits concerning pipe failure. I hate change, but I hate lawyers even more.

grumpyplumber_2

sweating copper

For heating systems you can use 50/50 solder, it flows at lower temp than lead free (95/5). For flux, water soluable shouldnt be a problem, but only flux the pipe, not the fitting. Mapp gas burns hotter (and cost more) than propane, so it seems to work better, thats not nessarly true. You can burn your flux out faster, thats all. 1" copper shouldnt need the extra heat . Move your flame around the fitting evenly, solder goes to the heat, watch carefully and you will see the solder "go" that is get sucked into the joint by the heat. If you wipe the joints with a cotton rag while the solder is still liquid, they will look nice and neat. For you "how much" folks, 1" copper = 1" of solder. For the rest of ya, feed solder till it drips.

Merry-xmas to all and go out there and have a great day.

Bob C.

What do you have for a torch? One of those prestolites that screw on to a bottle that would be used for camping? Those things are crap, you might as well heat it up with a lighter. Your probly not getting it hot enough. Most pro use a turbo torch either actylene or propane. If your using a prestolite then try moving the flame around the fitting keeping it to the back of the joint. But if you have a lot of work to do get a real torch. good luck

Bob Cat

Gary Fereday

? flux ?

grease or water base, either has the problem, that they need to be well stired up from time to time. Especilly a new jar of the stuff. It has been josheled and sitting long enough to seperate the flux properties from the medium it is carried in, water or grease. the grease stuff seperates readily in the summer when it melts in the tin. And the water type is setting up in the truck and vibrated just right to seperate it. I learned to stir with a coffee stirring stick before useing the flux, made a difference for me. Good luck

jfox

Mike

Would you explain tinning?

Thanks

zeb_3

tinning

tinning is the act of soldering the pipe & the fitting prior to assembly. clean pipe/fitting, apply flux, heat & apply solder to areas that would have contact w/ each other,wipe "bubble gum"(excess solder) now apply flux assemble joint & solder

Dan m_2

Thanks Again

Once again you guys really helped and i
appreciate it greatly.

Have a great Christmas
and a prosperous New Year

Dan

[Deleted User]

I object your honor....

Don't take it personally, please.

I suggest that both the pipe AND the fitting be LIGHTLY fluxed. More is NOT better.

FLux in general goes through numerous phase changes, it starts put as a paste (DUH) and as it is heated becomes liquidus, then bubbles and then goes dry. You want to start applying the solder just after the flux starts to bubble. If you keep the heat to the joint for much longer, it will oxidize, and won't tin. It's whats refered to as a "fried joint". It might hold water for a while, but it will eventually leak. What you basically have is a face joint with little or no penetration. Not good.

The primary problem with water based fluxes is that they have a much lower FRY point than do petroleum based fluxes.

Face it guys, we MUST learn how to correctly solder with water soluable fluxes. It is the law.

As for using 50/50 on heating systems, I would not suggest it. Yes, it will hold initially, but it has been my experience that long term exposure to high temps (180 and above) do cause the joints to weaken.

Better safe than sorry. If you can't solder with anything other than 50/50, try using Oatey Silver. It has a higher content of silver, and flow characteristics similar to 50/50.

One MAJOR key to soldering is to NOT over heat the joint. If you don't have enough heat, you WILL know, the solder won't flow. If you over heat the joint, you also wil not know, until the joint leaks.

Per the CDA, begin heating the joint where the pipe and fitting face are. Once around slowly... This is to expand the pipe into the fitting and avoid any unfillable gaps between the pipe and fitting. Then move the heat to the back of the joints solder cup, keeping the flame moving and watch the flux. When it bubbles, it's almost ready for solder. Start backing the flame away from the joint to avoid overheating the joint. Keep the flame moving. If you hold the torch in one spot for too long, you WILL fry the joint.

Get used to the new requirements, they are MANDATORY under federal law.

Even under the utmost ideal soldering conditions, things happen that can cause problems in the future. All you can do is the best you can do given the circumstances.

I see a time coming when we are required to use an electronic soldering tool that applies the heat perfectly evenly, and a green light comes on and tells you when to apply the solder. That, or we are no longer allowed to solder and are required to use fittings like the Rigid/Viega Propress system...

ME

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