Burnham boiler - oil fired smokey

Steamhead

I have a V-14 with that burner and it still burns nicely! But you have to set it up correctly and the procedure is different from the more-common Beckett units. In particular, if the cup is too far forward relative to the nozzle you'll get oil impingement and a poor flame.

Here is the setup page of the instruction sheet that came with the burner. Some of the type is rather small so I have posted it full-size.

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Jim Miller

Burnham boiler - oil fired smokey

Customer has a V-15 oil fired boiler - cannot clean up the smoke and wondering if I have the correct nozzle in it - all the nozzles laying around the furnace room are different - not too many of these oil burners around my area.
Burnham model V-15 , serial 7572641 , Sunray Bantam burner # FC134 (?)

current nozzle is 1.10 80 H
others laying around are 1.10 70 H , 1.00 70 H , 1.00 80 H


this unit is heating a slab in a barn - water temps are low (no mixing or bypass) - how much effect does the cold water have on the combustion?

BillW@honeywell

another source

You might find more information on this subject at www.OilTechTalk.com. That site is to oil burners what this one is to hydronics, steam and radiant.

ed wallace

sunray

you would be better to replace the old burner with a beckett or carlin the sunray is a low speed burner

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Alan R. Mercurio

Jim, I agree with Ed on this one. I know changing a burner is not always an option but one that old may have a distorted burner head from many years of use. if that's the case you'll never be able to clean up the smoke you're getting. Best of luck to you though.


Your friend in the industry,
Alan R. Mercurio

Oil Tech Talk

Steamhead

More ABC info

Here is the corresponding info from the boiler installation manual. This is how the burners were set up from the Burnham factory. The burner in the V-15 used a 60-degree nozzle, not a 70 or 80 degree. Earlier V1s could also be had with Wayne MS-R burners.

Later model V1 series boilers had Becketts. I don't have the Burnham OEM info on Beckett-equipped V1s, but I'm sure Glenn Stanton does. If you end up changing that burner, get the specs from Burnham and you can't go wrong.

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joel_14

Sunray

That burner was pretty touchy a Riello, Carlin, or becket would be a big improvement other thing is if oil isn't common where you are than parts for that won't be common either. Everything is oil (almost) here and we don't see many of them anymore.

Steamhead

But

if a new 60-degree nozzle makes it burn properly, why replace the entire burner?

As far as parts go, R. E. Michel (fine old Baltimore-based company) still stocks parts for the FC Bantam, as well as many burners that are even older. I haven't had to worry about getting parts at all. I think Enerjet bought out ABC, and may still have parts available also.

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ed wallace

burner

why replace because you can put in a much easier to service burner than what you have you can use the new suntec clean burn pump any no. of reasons the carlin and becketts work better with the burnam boiler

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Kevinj

Nozzel pattern

It looks like the data you posted shows a solid pattern and the guy with the problem is using a hollow pattern. That coupled with the wrong angle will give a poor burn.

Jim Miller

I'm definitely putting the 60 deg

nozzle in this unit before I consider replacement. I appreciate all the input. Thanks a lot for the data sheets !!

Unknown

Jim

Hi Jim,

I would advise contacting our technical services people on Monday at 1-800-722-0720. They can dig this one out of the archives and tell you the setup criteria. It has worked well (presumably) with this burner for better than 20 years. Why reinvent the wheel by experimenting?

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Corp.

Steamhead

No Problem, Jim

that's why we're here! Let us know how you do.

BTW- to those of you who recommended replacing the burner- if that had not been a flame-retention burner I would have agreed with you. While I'm definitely into old systems, I don't believe a poorly operating non-flame-retention burner is worth keeping. Though I do have an old Toridheet sitting in my garage......

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Steamhead

Glenn, were the V1/ABC specs revised

after my boiler was made and the manuals (see above posts) printed? If so, I wouldn't mind getting the latest ones as well.

TIA

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Jim Miller

what are the effects of downfiring

this unit ? - the spec sheet above states 1.35 gal , but I am wondering, since all the "old" nozzles laying around are 1.00 or 1.10, should I run at that level or the 1.35. My "oil expert" dad says that if I reduce the flow rate it will burn nicer and cleaner - true ? He says put a 1.00 in it

Also - with this old boiler, at this point should I worry about controlling the cold temps coming back to it from the slab? I am thinking....when it kills it, it kills it, do it right with the new boiler - - - -

thanks

Bob Bona_4

I've

seen my share of FC burners, and like others said, watch for the retention head warping/retention ring deteriorating. Tough to get parts for. The electrodes are tricky to get right w/o touching the head. 60 degree solid is the fix. You can try to boost the pump pressure/decrease the nozzle size proportionally to get a better fire also.

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Steamhead

Glenn and the Burnham Boys could answer this best

but I remember hearing that you shouldn't down-fire by more than 25%. For what it's worth, my V-14 is running .75 GPH with no apparent ill effects.

Down-firing 25% from 1.35 works out to 1.01 GPH. So, by the above rule, a 1 GPH, 60-degree, solid-cone nozzle would probably work OK.

But why not do a heat-loss on the building to see just how much you need? Then you can fire to the load.

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Jim Davis

The burner you have is a flame retetion burner which means it needs a solid nozzle. Sold them for years. 80 degree is preferred. The original pump setting was 100# pressure. Should be reset for minimum of 125# and the nozzled sized for the new pressure just slightly under the BTU of the boiler(don't have my Burnham book). At this point, after it is firing, the pump pressure can be tweeked a little higher or lower.

beebe

abc sunray fc setup

where can i get the setup sheet it for this burner

Steamhead

Right here, thanks to Alan

http://www.oiltechtalk.com/toolbox.shtml



Select the manual you want from the drop-down list. The basic FC Bantam manual is there as well as several OEM setup charts from Burnham for FC units that came with their boilers- maybe some others too.



What boiler is this burner on?

icesailor

ABC/ Crack-up:

You guys crack me up.

If you had a car garage, and someone drives up in a 1960 Ford Falcon, that was a bucket of rust, you saw it coming a mile away from the smoke cloud behind it, and was leaking so much oil, you would need a half bag of grease sweep if he left the engine running too long? And it was running on four cylinders / Would you suggest a tune up with hew spark plugs and a carburator along with a full service tune up and a oil change?

I hope not.

The guy I started out with way back when, would get his boilers and heating systems from one big outfit that did large jobs. He was a HB Smith dealer. We did big jobs. All our burners wee Carlin. Occasionally, I would do something else with a Sunray or some other thing. POS's. Get back to a Carlin was going back to a fine machine.

I could never get one of these things to run well and still can't. I just do my best. To get them ripped out.

The frustration of no matter how well I cleaned it, no matter how I tried, the stack temperature was too high, the thing was on the edge of smoke and I was lucky to get 9% Co2.

There is something really rewarding about taking a old boiler that in your opinion is tight but not state of the art, thoroughly cleaning it, putting a new Carlin (or whatever you like), setting it up and then getting 11% or 12% on the first try. It's really satisfaction for doing something. If I see a combustion test on something like this and it is below 80%, I know that I will NEVER get it above 80%. Never. Unless I change the burner.

If I see a pile of different nozzles laying around, I know that I am not the first @$$hat to have tried to make this POS run better. And if I don't change it, I won't be the last.

Or, maybe I will be the last to see it as oil because the customer will get talked into going with gas. With equipment that is far worse for the application than the one that is there.

Maybe you can fix that Ford Falcon with a pair of pliers and a roll of tar tape. But not todays cars.

Get professional. Get rid of it.

icesailor

Old Smokey with a cold return

Is this the same "Old Smokey" that is the subject of this discussion? If it is, you should have said something earlier. If not, here goes.

Yes, cold return water has an effect on combustion. A lot. That's why they put refractory mats in the bottom of wet based boilers. To reflect the heat of combustion back in to the flame. Otherwise, the bottom of the flame is cold and will smoke. BADLY.

Your car runs badly when it is cold and pollutes. When it gets hot, it is efficient and runs well. Same with boilers.

This boiler was piped and installed improperly in the beginning. No amount of "fix" will stop it from smoking until it gets hot. With 120 degree radiant floor water, the boiler will never get hot and will condense until it dies. And I don't think manufacturers will warranty a set up like this.

Installing a mix valve on the floor panels will pay for itself in fuel savings and boiler replacement.

Steamhead

"I could never get one of these things to run well and still can't"

"If I see a combustion test on something like this and it is below 80%, I know that I will NEVER get it above 80%"



Well Icy, I had to learn. That's why Golden Cup Sunrays do much better when we work on them. They're adjustable-head, flame-retention burners just like Carlins, Riellos, etc. All you have to do is set them up as they were intended. Thanks to Alan, much of the setup info is just a few mouse clicks away.



The biggest thing I see done wrong on Sunray Golden Cup burners is using the wrong nozzle for the application. These burners could produce a wide range of flame patterns depending on the nozzle spray angle used. You could get equally good results with a 30° solid nozzle in a long, narrow firing zone as you could using an 80° solid in a shorter, wider one. This made them popular for retrofit/upgrade jobs.



We have a customer with a Sunray TC that was running poorly when we first got there. No more- I serviced it last week and it was running beautifully. Just a slight amount of dust in the boiler's flue passages, same as we'd have from any flame-retention burner that's running properly. It's amazing what the proper nozzle and proper head adjustments will do.



The FC Bantam was created by Dr. Bola Kamath, who now runs HeatWise. I've had the pleasure of meeting him. He's a genius, and his Sunray designs have held up well. My own FC was achieving 13% CO2 with zero smoke after dropping half a percent for headroom, and would still do so today if I got tired of the NX I'm working with at the moment.



No one denies that Carlin makes very good burners, and that (at least in the Baltimore area) they are quite well supported. Whether they'll run that much better than a properly-tuned Sunray Golden Cup is debatable though. A good burner is a good burner- it's the selection, installation and maintenance that count most.

icesailor

Ole Smokey:

Steamer,

My comments are and always to things that are difficult for the "average" tech to service and DX. Some of us are better than others.

As far as ABC things are concerned, I found them to be quite "touchy". Years ago, before I was self employed, the boss would get W/M 62 series package boilers with ABC burners on them. Because no one in the crew wanted to get oil on their hands, I was the chosen one. We never had the equipment then that "I" have today. I had one that ran REALLY badly. I finally figured that the retention ring/cone had been welded on to the electrode/nozzle assembly at about 3 degrees off from verticle. No way it was bent. There were three square SS rods holding it in place. Bock used them for years on olil fired water heaters. They finally changed because although no one complained about them, if given a choice, no one ever asked for them. They switched to Carlins and Riello's.

I guess it is a case of the "Druthers". If I have a choice, I'd druther work on something else.

Steamhead

That was a different one, Icy

the 45CU, which did not use the Golden Cup. It was an earlier ABC design, not a Sunray, dating back to before the two companies were merged. Essentially it was similar to the Wayne MH but it had a 1725-RPM motor.  I agree, they were difficult to set up properly.



I believe W-M used the 45CU thru the 65 series and the very early 66 series. After that they started using Becketts. The AFG runs very well in a W-M 66.



The design of the Sunray Golden Cup is similar to the Carlin CRD and FFD heads. It will produce a flame of similar quality.

billtwocase

different burners all together

Not the same burners Ice. Those were Wayne's early flame retention. Brazed a many of those. They like 70/80 hollows. The Bantam was and still is a good burner.