Diesel

Joe at krahezfoo@aol.com

Been kicking around the idea of obtaining a cattle trailer, hooking it up to my Chevy S-10, putting about thirty head of cattle into the trailer; and piping them up to engine. At night I could change the piping over to the house, using quick disconnects, and hook them up to my furnace. All natural, earth friendly. Transportation and home heating all in one package; keeping it clean and green! Should I call my heating system Bovine-Modine ?

Ben_2

Cheating

One of my neighbors is trying to convince me that home fuel oil and Diesel are the same beast. That they are dyed different colours simply to allow price and usage differences.

Anyone have an opinion?

If this was true what stops a person from buying Diesel for their Diesel vehicle and syphoning out to the house tank?

Ben

heretic

Same Beast

They are the same, other than certain seasonal additives in some regions for Deisel.

...and that "Tax dye", as you say.
It would be silly to use Deisel for heating, since it costs more.

Oh, I should probably mention that it is a FEDERAL crime to use heating oil as a motor fuel. That would be Tax Evasion. Brought down Capone...

Ben_2

Hmm

So what stops people from using Diesel from the Station in their Home?

heretic

Nothing

Would be legal in that direction, but taxed, and therefore more expensive.
I have done this many times for a variety of reasons, including several times when I have run out of oil in the middle of the night.

Dale

They are the same

But, no road use tax on the home fuel oil color. Like farm diesel which should be only used on the farm, ever wonder why farmers drive to work in diesel pickups?

B. Tice

oil

No, they are not the same.On Road Diesel is low sulfer dyed blue.Off road diesel and heating oil are the same product dyed red. It is high sulfer. They all used to be the same. Heating oil will most likely be low sulfer pretty soon. On road diesel will be a better burning product. Due to the low sulfer content. I see this working on systems where the homeowner is a Trucker or state worker. (I wonder where the fuel is coming from???) As a Friend of mine said, "if you work for the state and don't heat with oil, you're crazy"

Aidan (UK)

UK diesel

Gas oil fuel is used as the base for diesel fuel. Diesel prices will, apparently, go up in winter due to the increased demand for heating oil. Kerosene is quite different. I don't know what these grades of oil are known as in the US.

Diesel fuel has lubricity additives that won't be in the heating oil, so it can be harsh on the diesel injection pump, a VERY expensive item to replace. The dyes can be absorbed, but the marker is a chemical which can be detected in minute concentrations. The heating oil can be detected in the tank after many months.

The duty on road fuel are higher in Europe, so the incentives to avoid it are greater. This is one area in which the Europeans are far ahead of the US.Go to

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/threads.htm?f=2

This is a UK motoring forum and do a search for "heating oil", the topic is discussed regularly. The knowledeable opinions are that one doesn't mess with HM Customs & Excise, the penalties are severe (confiscate vehicle, big fine, payment of duty on ALL fuel estimated to have been used since you bought the vehicle, etc). Probably similar penalties apply in the US.

What I found interesting, is that a diesel engine will also run on cooking oil; they were originally designed to run on peanut oil. There have recently been a lot of Welsh people using used oil from the local take-aways. The exhaust smells like a chip shop, which can be a give away.

J.C.A.

The biggest difference,

Is the additive package . To be used as "off road diesel" , fuel is treated (hopefully) with an additive that boosts cetane(diesel equivelent of octane) and an additive that boosts lubricity. I've seen the damage done running straight #2 home fuel in an engine and it ain't pretty . Small fuel injector pieces/parts become fused to the crowns of pistons and become ignition sources as they are embedded in cylinder heads where they don't belong .

Buy your diesel from a reputable distributor,same as your home fuel .There are a few companies that do both . The company I worked for had a "split tank" truck with diesel only ,off road in 1 , on road in the other . Chris

John Lenhart

one other little thing

When your Ford/International diesal truck engine shuts down from using home heating oil, you can take it to your local Ford dealer. The mechanic will remove the fuel filter screen and see the red dye. At this point he will inform you that you just voided your waranty. Think about it.

chris smith

fuel

a diesel will run on lots of things natural, gas propane ,bunker c[ similar to #6 fuel], 4 oil it's maine requirment is a sutible cetane number [this is a scale of a fuels ability to self ignite back when i went to sea for a living i encountered all thease fuels it was very interesting

chris smith

paradise porter maine

Patrick_5

diesel

You would think that home fuel oil would be considerably cheaper, since at the pump it state that 40 cents of each gallon is road use tax but when i order my fuel it is only a couple cents cheaper a gallon. I have had this debate with more than one fuel oil company and have never gotten a straight answer. I have asked them to break down the per gallon price with no luck, that really got me going so i told them to cram there delivery. Went the entire winter filling cans at the pump, what a pain!!!

SeattleNick_2

Here is some fuel info......

http://www.biodieselnow.com/

SeattleNick_2

Here is some fuel info......

that is interesting.....

http://www.biodieselnow.com/

"What is biodiesel?
Biodiesel is a vegetable oil-based fuel that runs in diesel engines - cars, buses, trucks, construction equipment, boats, generators, and oil home heating units. It's usually made from soy or canola oil, and can also be made from recycled fryer oil (yes, from McDonalds or your local Chinese restaurant). You can blend it with regular diesel or run 100% biodiesel. As little as a 2% blend can reduce emissions by 30%.

What are the benefits?
1) National security. Since it's made in America, it reduces our dependence on foreign oil. That's good.

2) National economy. Using biodiesel keeps our fuel buying dollars here in America instead of sending it to foreign countries. This reduces our trade deficit and creates jobs.

3) It's sustainable & non-toxic. Face it, we're going to run out of oil eventually. Biodiesel is 100% renewable... we'll never run out of it. And if it gets into your water supply, there's no problem - it's veggie oil! Heck, you can drink it if you so desire, but it tastes nasty (trust me).
(Learn more)

4) Emissions. Biodiesel is nearly carbon-neutral, meaning it contributes almost zero emissions to global warming and contributes practially nothing to acid rain! Biodiesel also dramatically reduces other emissions. I like clean air, how about you? Plus, the exhaust smells like popcorn or french fries!
(Learn more)

5) Engine life. Studies have shown it reduces engine wear by as much as one half and increases fuel economy by up to 13%, primarily because it provides excellent lubricity. Even a 20% biodiesel/80% diesel blend will help.
(Learn more)

6) Drivability. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't notice an immediate smoothing of the engine with biodiesel. It just runs quieter, and produces less smoke.

Are there any negatives?
There are a couple.
1) Primarily that it's not readily available in much of the nation, YET (click here for a map of locations). Consumption jumped from 500,000 gallons in 2000 to 15 million gallons in 2001, so hopefully availability will change soon. 2) Biodiesel will clean your injectors and fuel lines. If you have an old diesel vehicle, there's a chance that your first tank or two of BD could free up all the accumulated crud and clog your fuel lines. 3) It has a higher gel point. B100 (100% biodiesel) gets slushy little under 32°F. But B20 (20% biodiesel, 80% regular diesel - more commonly available than B100) has a gel point of -15°F. Like regular diesel, the gel point can be lowered further with additives such as kerosene (blended into winter diesel in cold-weather areas). 4) Finally, old vehicles might require upgrades of fuel lines (a cheap, easy upgrade), as BD can eat through certain types of rubber. Almost all new vehicles should have no problem with BD."

SeattleNick_2

Here is some fuel info......

that is interesting.....

http://www.biodieselnow.com/

"What is biodiesel?
Biodiesel is a vegetable oil-based fuel that runs in diesel engines - cars, buses, trucks, construction equipment, boats, generators, and oil home heating units. It's usually made from soy or canola oil, and can also be made from recycled fryer oil (yes, from McDonalds or your local Chinese restaurant). You can blend it with regular diesel or run 100% biodiesel. As little as a 2% blend can reduce emissions by 30%.

What are the benefits?
1) National security. Since it's made in America, it reduces our dependence on foreign oil. That's good.

2) National economy. Using biodiesel keeps our fuel buying dollars here in America instead of sending it to foreign countries. This reduces our trade deficit and creates jobs.

3) It's sustainable & non-toxic. Face it, we're going to run out of oil eventually. Biodiesel is 100% renewable... we'll never run out of it. And if it gets into your water supply, there's no problem - it's veggie oil! Heck, you can drink it if you so desire, but it tastes nasty (trust me).
(Learn more)

4) Emissions. Biodiesel is nearly carbon-neutral, meaning it contributes almost zero emissions to global warming and contributes practially nothing to acid rain! Biodiesel also dramatically reduces other emissions. I like clean air, how about you? Plus, the exhaust smells like popcorn or french fries!
(Learn more)

5) Engine life. Studies have shown it reduces engine wear by as much as one half and increases fuel economy by up to 13%, primarily because it provides excellent lubricity. Even a 20% biodiesel/80% diesel blend will help.
(Learn more)

6) Drivability. I have yet to meet anyone who doesn't notice an immediate smoothing of the engine with biodiesel. It just runs quieter, and produces less smoke.

Are there any negatives?
There are a couple.
1) Primarily that it's not readily available in much of the nation, YET (click here for a map of locations). Consumption jumped from 500,000 gallons in 2000 to 15 million gallons in 2001, so hopefully availability will change soon. 2) Biodiesel will clean your injectors and fuel lines. If you have an old diesel vehicle, there's a chance that your first tank or two of BD could free up all the accumulated crud and clog your fuel lines. 3) It has a higher gel point. B100 (100% biodiesel) gets slushy little under 32°F. But B20 (20% biodiesel, 80% regular diesel - more commonly available than B100) has a gel point of -15°F. Like regular diesel, the gel point can be lowered further with additives such as kerosene (blended into winter diesel in cold-weather areas). 4) Finally, old vehicles might require upgrades of fuel lines (a cheap, easy upgrade), as BD can eat through certain types of rubber. Almost all new vehicles should have no problem with BD."

heretic

Biodeisel

Far off topic, but interesting nontheless...

Be wary of these claims.
One problem with biodeisel that is common to all plant-derived fuels is that they typically require more energy to create than the fuel contains. This is due to the energy expended in tending crops, producing fertilizers, processing/refining and so on. Also, farming itself is not an environmentally benign activity. While reprocessing fry oil would have an excellent payback, the available supply is insignificant in terms of deisel consumed. In other words, the technology "doesn't scale".

jim f

i guess you can use bio-disel for home heating oil than right????

Tony_4

not the same

The truth is... home heating oil is actually better for your diesel motor. The reason being is that the goverment has passed low sulfer requirements on diesel fuel but not on home heating.
Unfortunatly it is this sulfur that lubricates the the injection pump on a diesel motor...this is the reason you will now see lubricity additives advertised on the bottle of your diesel antifreeze.

Other that that it is only red dye and tax.
Tony

SeattleNick_2

Sure, saving a few bucks by

using "heating oil" in your pickup may be the topic, but look at the lengths that people go to try something new.
I wonder where used fryer oil goes now? Out the back door? Down the sewer?
Since I maintain a Cogeneration plant (2~3MW) fired by digester fuel, "alternative" fuels are interesting to me. There is a University in the Bay Area that runs a Fairbanks - Morse Opposed Piston engine (the type that powered WW2 submarines) generating electricity (1.3MW) and heating campus buildings. This engine will run either in the full diesel mode or on Natural Gas with a 1% pilot diesel injection to provide ignition (no spark plugs). They are currently using Biodiesel in this engine blended with 20% off highway No.1 diesel if I remember correctly. I guess the exhaust has the aroma of french fries......

SeattleNick_2

Sure, saving a few bucks by

using "heating oil" in your pickup may be the topic, but look at the lengths that people go to try something new.
I wonder where used fryer oil goes now? Out the back door? Down the sewer?
Since I maintain a Cogeneration plant (2~3MW) fired by digester fuel, "alternative" fuels are interesting to me. There is a University in the Bay Area that runs a Fairbanks - Morse Opposed Piston engine (the type that powered WW2 submarines) generating electricity (1.3MW) and heating campus buildings. This engine will run either in the full diesel mode or on Natural Gas with a 1% pilot diesel injection to provide ignition (no spark plugs). They are currently using Biodiesel in this engine blended with 20% off highway No.1 diesel if I remember correctly. I guess the exhaust has the aroma of french fries......

SeattleNick_2

Sure, saving a few bucks by

using "heating oil" in your pickup may be the topic, but look at the lengths that people go to try something new.
I wonder where used fryer oil goes now? Out the back door? Down the sewer?
Since I maintain a Cogeneration plant (2~3MW) fired by digester fuel, "alternative" fuels are interesting to me. There is a University in the Bay Area that runs a Fairbanks - Morse Opposed Piston engine (the type that powered U.S. submarines during WW2) generating electricity (1.3MW) and heating campus buildings. This engine will run either in the full diesel mode or on Natural Gas with a 1% pilot diesel injection to provide ignition (no spark plugs). They are currently using Biodiesel in this engine blended with 20% off highway No.1 diesel if I remember correctly. They say that part of the school's campus has the aroma of french fries from the exhaust stack......mmmmmm!

Tony_4

The Cost

hr

Oil from poultry processing!

I think the article is in last months Popular Science mag about using waste from chicken and turkey operations for fuel oil substitute. Sure would be a funky smelling truck.

Makes sense to use waste cooking oils, etc. Think of how much fryer oil McDonalds sends out monthly. What exactly happens to used deep fryer fat? I imagine it gets recycled somehow. What does it turn into? Filtered, ROed and resold???

Lying awake tonight wondering

hot rod

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Tony_4

no longer blue

On road diesel is no longer dyed blue. The goverment dropped this because of the confusion with 100 low lead av fuel.
Also to date several airports have had to completely drain onsite fuel depots because red dye was discovered in fuel tanks.
Pilots have been informed to cancel any flight if red dye is noticed in fuel. Once again the government is mandating things they they cannot control.
For some really hilarious reading try a search engine with the words red dye in fuel...You will see many articles from UK..they have been trying to stop the irish from removing the red dye in huge amounts to no avail and then going through major legislation to have the red dye changed to a yellow dye that was suppose to be more stable and was found to be more easily removed than the red.

Steve Ebels

The local farmers co-op

Here is selling a low sulfer diesel/heating oil that is dyed red. It has all the additives for consumption by diesel engines. All the farmers and loggers run it with no problems. It also burns very nice in oil furnaces. Leaves no white ash like regular fuel oil. The furnaces and boilers that I see during service calls look really nice inside. The btu content is just a little less than number 2 oil.