Real HO with Leaking Oil Tank

Steamhead

is what this sounds like. We complain when other countries try to import things like steel at less than cost, in an attempt to undermine American manufacturers. This sounds like the same thing to me. I'd reject the deal on that basis alone.

Plus, once they have you hooked up, they can jack rates up as they please. There's no competition!

If that were my house, I'd replace the tank and put in the most efficient oil-fired boiler I could find. So what if the initial cost is higher- sounds to me like you'd save in the long run.

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Walt

Real HO with Leaking Oil Tank - Gas vs Oil

Now I know that this topic gets people's dander up..but:

We have to replace our oil tank because it is leaking...no my name is not Sue. We actually have two tanks and shut one down two years ago because it was leaking a lot.

I call our oil company to get a bid. $1223. Not that bad, but I it does not address a fundamental problem that we have...an old inefficient boiler that is twice as large as it needs to be. So I say, "Hey..can we work something out...you know the gas company is knocking down my door to give me a new more efficient boiler." No chance. I don't feel like I was asking for a free meal. The only thing these folks said to us when we were using more than $300 worth of oil a week was, "God, you sure use a lot of oil." I stood there with their tech who cleaned our boiler and watched the boil short cycle. I said, "This thing really short cycles a lot. Anything you can do about that?" He said, "No, not really." I paid him and he went on to his next job. We've been a lucrative customer for them....you'd think they would stretch to keep us.

If I pay cash on the barrel head for a new oil tank and a new 85% efficient oil boiler (with near boiler piping only, since the rest of the system is done) it will cost me $1223 for the tank plus somewhere around $4000 for the boiler(quoted by the oil company).....approximately $5223 in all. For that I can have a 97% efficient Muchkin or Trinity put in.

For half that I can take the gas company's free 87% efficiency boiler and have it installed.

I always tend toward supporting a family owned business, since that's what fed me as a kid...but I am weighing this at a time when the price of oil might go through the roof just as I waltz off to war and my family has to make ends meet on my Army salary rather than what I make in my regular job. Monopoly or not...the gas company looks more competitive and more responsive than the oil company to me. Maybe it is a trap or maybe the Gas company is just offering me a better deal? I guess if I was 100% sure I would not be looking for input on the decision. Am I mising something (as usual)?

Jackchips

Hi Walt,

One of the great advantages with oil is the competition. You should definetly be getting more quotes (at least two). I converted to gas many years ago and have watched them play with their rates whenever oil companies had supply problems.

The biggest difference when they charge more, there is no where else to go.
Two advantages they have: it is a clean fuel, although a well maintained oil unit is also, and it is always there (as long as the supply lasts).

You may want to make a decision after getting quotes from oil companies that know how to end your boiler short cycling and checking their references.

Good luck.

Steamhead

Free Boiler?

What's the catch? There has to be one- no one in their right mind would give away boilers....... How do they intend to make their money?

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Mark J Strawcutter

time to try a different oil company? (nm)

scrook

Oil vs Gas -- rambling thoughts

Can he do anything about the short cycling? Without replacing it with something correctly sized, "No, not really."

What have other oil companies quoted to do a first class job of replacing the tank?

The gas co will give you a free 87% (therefore must be condensing right?) boiler, but what will they charge to *install* it and who will the installing contractor be, and will he/she do a first class install?

What are other oil or heating contractors willing to do a first class 85% CI boiler install for?

If you go gas how much is gas per therm (100,000 BTU) in your area vs. the cost of oil (140,000 BTU/gallon)? Here in New England Gas is more than oil by a fair amount, but the savings on the boiler may make the payback quite long swinging the argument in favor of gas (especially if you believe you may move in less than the payback period).

Do you have a heating system such as radient floor or grossly oversized (due to added insulation, design for cooler gravity HW, etc.) CI radiators, etc. that can run at low enough water temperatures to take full advantage of a high efficiency condensing gas system.

Your oil dealer may be at a disadvantage in that he may not be able to come down much from $4000 and still make a modest sum on the install.

Get a few quotes, look at the economics and come back here and tell us where you ended up in the end.

Lee_3

what about adding...

an indirect water heater, primary secondary piping and an out door reset system to the gas unit. Depending on the knowledge and capabilities of the gas comapny installer it may require you to bring in a second contractor to do this but you will have a fairly efficent system at a substantial savings. It will cost you upfront but it will cost less than the oil + tank and no control or HW system.

ed wallace

gas vs oil

hi you did not say if its steam or hot water system i know companys that do the convarsions for the gas co. they get you the free boiler than charge 100% markup on parts the labor charge is typically around $4000-$4500 so you tell me where the savings are on switching and in new england the gas co. is charging more for gas than oil when you compare on a btu comparision

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Walt

Answers to Qs

The house is in Boston, so the new England prices would apply. It is hot water. There are three radiant floors and the cast iron radiators are way oversized...so it should condense like mad. I have piped the current system myself. It has 5 zones of radiators and the 3 radiant floors. The zones are controlled by two tekmar 369s. The supply to the radiant floors is stepped down via a 4-way valve controlled by a tekmar 362. The boiler is controlled by a tekmar 262 (which can control 2 boilers). It is piped and wired so that an indirect hot water heater can be added. It is set up in primary secondary. We plan on being in the house for a long time to come.

Since only the near boiler piping needs to be done it should not cost anywhere near $4000 to sub in a gas boiler if the boiler is paid for. Even if gas is more expensive, if I can get someone to put in the gas boiler for $2500 I am saving $2700 initially. That would get eaten up after a some number of years by the extra expense of heating with gas.

Does anyone know how much more expensive gas is than oil on a btu basis. Is it 5%/10%/15% more expensive per btu?

Anyone know of a company in the Boston area that removes oil tanks?

jim bannister

Walt...

I live in the Boston area and have worked here all of my life. I can guarantee that the gas company programs are not all that truthful.

1. The current program expires December 31st, 2002.
2. If you currently have gas service in the house, you
are ineligible.
3. If you do not currently have gas service in your
house, you must have a majority of your neighbors
sign up before they will run in a new main.
4. The "free" part only includes the basic equipment.
5. You must pay all labor and mark-up charges.
6. If you have a problem after installation, the gas
company will not service it.
7. Will the installer (plumber) come out at night or on
a weekend to service it?
8. The "free" installation does not include the cost of
removal of the oil tank. Approximate cost to do this
legally in the Boston area, $500 to $800.
9. Operational cost in the Boston area leaves much to be
desired where gas is concerned.
10. If you can find a plumber that understands Tekmar
controls around here, please let me know.

To answer your question, yes, I work for an oil company in Boston. I also have gas heat in my house, so I know both sides of the balance sheet. Last year, Service Edge was taking their telephone off of the hook because they could not handle the volume of service calls. If you do decide to convert to gas, GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING!!!!!!You get nothing for nothing in this world. I honestly think that you got stuck with an oil company that was not as technically astute as others. These are just my opinions and I wish you well no matter what your choice.

ed wallace

oil vs gas

you should click on to find a contractor and find someone who can help you im in Watertown Ma.

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ed wallace

oil vs gas

you should click on to find a contractor and find someone who can help you im in Watertown Ma.

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scrook

Keyspan gas rates

http://delivery.keyspanenergy.com/gasrates/gasratehome.cfm

also (for oil):

http://www.state.ma.us/doer/fuels/pricing.htm#oilsurvey

and:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/winter_fuels_report/current/pdf/tablec3.pdf

Frank_5

free boiler

here in the NYC area, the local ga supplier, Keyspan, has been offering free boilers and water heaters to residential customers that switch to gas from oil. The two pieces of equipment is free, but the labor, piping, removal, etc. is not. So the HO usually saves $1400-$1500, and the gas company retains another HO. Small investment for a ka-jillion dollar company that makes $$$ selling gas.

PJO

Another thought...

Walt,

If your existing boiler is in decent condition, is it possible to pipe in a buffer tank as well as the indirect? That would help the short-cycling even more.

What does the boiler do in the summer? What do you currently use for hot water generation?

Sorry about the leaking tank...went through that once myself. I agree with the other posts on getting at least two more bids...and see if they want to do the other work (if you are not going to do it yourself).

As you can probably tell, I lean towards oil as well...many reasons as above, plus IMHO it is safer.

Siggy had an article that may help with the buffer tank issue. I'll see if I can attach it. Take Care, PJO

PJO

The article...

attached, but not the layout drawings and pictures. This was a great system, and the missing stuff really helps when you see it...picture/thousand words, etc.

Can anybody put the article in there with the layouts?

Operator error? Doh!

Take Care, PJO

Walt

Real Numbers

Thanks everyone for your tips and suggestions. I've crunched the numbers: in Boston, for my house, I will end up paying about $.98 per therm for gas. I will end up paying about $.91 for the same number of BTUs of oil (based on my oil companies price as of 10 minutes ago). So oil is roughly 7% cheeper per btu. Though, if the oil boiler is 85% efficent and the gas boiler is 95% efficient than one would use about 9% more oil in order to heat the place. That makes oil more expesive by a couple of percent....of course that could change tomorrow. It also seems a little more expensive to maintion oil equipment. All in all, if you pay cash for the oil install and cash for the gas install (which you would have to do, since the Gas co does not offer a Munchkin or Trinity) your end up very very close to even when it comes to cash flows.

heretic

Gas vs. Oil

Walt,

I was sort of in your shoes, except for the leaking tank part. Oh, and just 1 tank.

Assuming you can't reasonably fixup the current oil boiler to make it behave...

Keyspan obviously makes a compelling consumer case.
Free gas line, free boiler, plus an additional $400 rebate (+$100 more for DHW)in rebates from GasNetworks (a consortium).
Labor and accessory costs vary, as you know. Sounds like you have already considered your cost/benefit analysis very carefully. Based upon your numbers, I don't think you will find the oil vs. gas operating costs are going to close the large initial cost gap you are looking at, particularly with the comparison that involves a modulating/condensing gas boiler. That said, I do understand the Monopoly objection.

I don't have Keyspan in my town, so the free boiler part was off the table.

Also, I had a flue that was so deteriorated that it was not even suitable for oil any longer.
In my case, the flue component really tipped the balance towards gas, since through-the-wall venting options were better, and I simply rolled the relining cost into purchasing more efficient equipment.
Keep the flue in mind for your cost/benefit analysis on the "free" boiler. Flue lining is expensive, and an atmospheric gas boiler may require relining (more acid byproducts), where sticking with oil may not.

As for the tank- I 'bent' the law and removed it myself by cutting it into pieces. Mine was not buried underground, which is a whole other deal.
This is NOT to be considered as encouragement for anyone to do this, but I will state that it was not complicated or even dangerous, IMHO.

I did apply common sense:
1) Entirely removed fill and vent pipes to prevent accidental fill.
2) Pumped clean oil into approved containers, and donated to happy neighbor.
3) Pumped waste watery and dirty oil into containers.
4) Shoveled waste solids into sealable 5 gallon pails.
5) Brought all waste to appropriate disposal facility.
6) Appropriate respirator, disposable coveralls, rubber gloves, etc.

Did I mention the common sense part...

You may want to check with companies that specialize in just tank removal. A booming business in MA! They might be able to offer a better deal.

Best of luck.

Steamhead

Maintaining Oil Equipment

is actually a plus, since you get a (hopefully) pro coming into the basement every year to clean and tune the system, and who will be in a position to prevent major disasters via preventive maintenance. If I were going to be away for an extended time as you will be, I would find that comforting.

Take a look at the Burnham Opus oil-fired boiler. It has an 87% AFUE, built-in reset controls and more, and it's designed around a Beckett burner for which parts are readily available almost anywhere. Go to www.aboutopus.com for further information. Burnham also makes an Opus for gas.

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