Weil-McLain lock-out

Herb

boiler having trouble with lockout. Home owner called us in(we are their propane gas company). Boiler is about 10 years old with a United Technologies boiler control. The control was flashing the red light indicating lockout. We turned off the power for a minute then back on. The unit then proceeded to work fine , till the next morning same condition. Today I replaced the ignitor with the Weil-McClain ignitor along with the new shield, gasket and screws from the kit but my gut thinks the smart board may still be the culprit. Any voices of wisdom out there? Thanks alot Herb

Unknown

What did you get for

microamps? The fact that you put the kit in will reduce the effect of condensation on the igniter. Give it a try and moniter the microamps with your meter. They should be between 2 to 10 normal around 3 to 5. Is this a United Technology 1012 Integrated Boiler Control?

If it is give me the complete number of the control.

Herb

boiler control

I believe is a United Technologies 1012. The ignitor I pulled out had an area with a white deposit. Looked almost like an ignitor with a break but this one still glowed. How do you do a Micro amp test?

Bill Wright_2

Timmie is correct ...

check the micro-amp reading of the ignitor.

Another common source of "intermittent" ignitor failures involves voltage feedback through Zone Valve end switches. Check the wiring (if zone valves are involved), looking for feedback (i.e. do you get a voltage reading downstream of a supposedly open endswitch?)

I will be out of the office most of today -- my weekend to defend our country against aggressors, foreign & domestic -- but if you have any further questions you can call one of our Technical Services Engineers @ (219) 879-6561 (tell them that you are a contractor & ask for Tech Services).

Bill Wright
Manager, Radiant & Plumbing Systems
Weil-McLain

Herb

Weil-McClain lock out

Checked the boiler control and found it is a United Technologies boiler control model 1013-100. Boiler HE II-3,series 1. This unit uses the ignitor as the flame sensor not a separate kanthol rod. The customer called again and the new ignitor did not make a difference, unit locked out again. I know how to check micro amp with a sensor but not with just an ignitor,help. Thanks Herb

Unknown

Does the 1013 control have

a burner gound connection, if so put your microamp meter in series with the wire from burner ground and bring the system on you should be able to read the microamps. Other wise you will have to use a momentary switch connection to test it out. I have a Troubleshooting Guide that shows how to do that if you are interested.

Also make sure you have a good ground.

Is this unit equipped with multiple try function or is it single try and then lock out? What is the TTFI (Timed Trial for Ignition).

Does this unit have a post purge feature, make sure when the call for heat ends that it goes through the post purge. If not replace the 1013. Some models of Boiler Integrated Controls had that problem.

Boilerpro

Having the same problem with 3 Propane HE's....

about 10 to 12 years old. I cleaned burners (system runs at too low a temp)of rust and dust and things have improved considerably, but still not right. Not getting any flame carryover at first stage of gas valve (3 inches WC) on either of two boilers with correct gas valves (third is getting changed). Flame only carries over at 10 inches. Trying new burners next week in one that has newer WR ignition module with seperate sensor, will report back. This installation has been having problems since it was installed. Also checked propane pressure at full load. Was too low had propane comppany check equipment was undersized and corrected... now within spec under load and runs a about 14.5 with no load. Will be checking ignitor resistances next trip. Please keep me informed...



Boilerpro

Boilerpro

One other thing... (actually a few)

I was recently informed of other issues. The colder an ignitor gets, the less reliable it becomes....maybe the customer is now setting back the thermostat. Also was told that the combination ignitor/sensor is inherently unreliable and most manufacturers have gone to seperate ignitors/ sensors. Production quality of ignitors is also very poor...so resistances vary dramatically between new ignitors. This source had several hundred units going down at any one time and discovered the common element was new ignitors with high resistances. Bought a case of them, and tested them all...Low resistance units where installed (under 50 ohms)and higher ones got set aside. Just got this info about 2 hours ago. Ignitors are new to me, So I'm on the steep part of the learning curve. Clean those burners!

Boilerpro

Unknown

Whose igniters are these

I am curious to know.

What was the resistance measured?

I am assuming these are Norton igniters the resistances are different for the 17 second warmup igniter (Norton 271) resistance between 40-75 ohms at room temperature.

The 34 second warmup igniter (Norton 201) resitance 45-400 ohms at RTR.

Most other manufacturers are about the same.

Surface Igniter Corporation (Old Carborundum)

FF,FS Models can be between 17 to 60 secods at 115 volts

Also the FC shock mount is 17-60 seconds

FT Model is 40 seconds

RC model is 70 seconds

Weil Mclain has used all 17 second igniters so only Norton 271 model should be used.

Robertshaw is the distributor for Norton Igniters

Robertshaw #'s 41-409 (Norton 271) WM Part # 511-330-139

41-406 (Norton 271Y) WM Part # 511-330-188

41-403 (Norton 271M) WM Part # 511-330-193

41-404 (Norton 271M with special adapters) WM # 511-330-190

I strongly suggest that you get hold of my Troubleshooting Guide for HSI it is only $5.00 + $5 shipping and handling.

If Weil McLain will give you permission you can use a seperate sensor and only use the igniter for lighting the burners. Make sure you locate the sensor at the last burner to get gas, it should be 1" into the flame and 1/4" to 1/2" off the top of the burner.

Watch out for condensate dripping on igniters, also they do not like contaminants like drywall dust, insulation, fiberglass, chlorine, spray propellants etc.

Also check the cycling of the burner it should be close to 3 cycles per hour at 50% of heating load.

Unknown

Dave is this still the same job???

Are these two stage units, reason I ask is you said pressure was 3" w.c. on first stage? What is the gas valve on the units?

What is the number on new WR Ignition Module.

Boilerpro

Timmie....

Not sure whose ignitors they were, but the occurance was a few years ago, I believe, when HSI was new. I understood that the mixture of teh materials for the3 Silicon carbide was very inconsistant. Only Ignitors under 50 ohms (or so) RTR were installed. Eventually the permanent fix was to go to all Honeywell(?) ignition systems with separate ignitors and sensors. No problems since. I've got you electronic ignition guides and will be doing some checking with them on my next vist to the site. These boilers are short cycling terribly because they are not being step fired and the stucture has multiple zones and they spend most of thier time in setback. One boiler did have a WR sensor...straight sensor.... attached to one wire of the 271M ignitor going to the Fenwal 05-21226-103 ignition module (OE Weil) I removed it since it did not appear to be helping the situation.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro

Yep

Here's the rundown so far.
Propane supply pressure too low when all boilers lit...corrected. Static pressure still at 14.5 WC, minimum 11.75 at gas valve inlet pressure tapping on boiler farthest from regulator.
All burners were dirty and had rust closing up the ports near the front of the boilers. Wire brushed and blew out the burners. Flame carry over now occurs much more reliably. Usually first two burners under ignitor light on low pressure, but no others. On high pressure step, all burners light off, when there is not an apparent lock out....sometimes quicker than other times.

Boiler 1 Fenwal ignition 05-212226-103 (OE) and 271M ignitor with extra WR 760-401 sensor tacked on..extra sensor removed. W.R. 36C074 type227 Gas valve step opens to 3.5 for 3 sec and then quickly opens to 10. Two burner light on low step then carries over on high step. Sometimes ignition locks out, but remove extra sensor may have eliminated the problem.
Boiler 2 Gas valve step opens to 3.5 for 7 secs and then slowly open to 10 inches (about 3 to 5 sec) Was opening to 12.5 but adjusted back to 10. Flame carry over a little slower on this boiler, and sometimes ignition locks out. On last visit, after boiler cooled, took about 5 trys to get all burners lite(only first two (1 and 2)would lite) then once there was full operation, it relite the nest five tries. I believe the sensor is over burners 2 and 3. It is at 90 degress to the burners. Same gas valve as above, but has WR 50E47-170 module, 271m ignitor, and WR760-802 sensor. Ignitor to be replaced with 201 per WM rep. All other ignition components are WM approved retrofit components for the original Fenwal ignition.
Boiler 3 Robertshaw- grayson gas valve7200IPER nat gas, apparently converted to Propane single step to 10 inches. Was opening to 8.25 adjusted to 10. Same Fenwal Ignition and ignitor as boiler 3. Gas valve to be replaced with WR 36C074 per WR. Flame carries over quickly...not sure about lockout.
Next step:
New burners and corrected ignitor on Boiler 2
Corrected gas valve on boiler 3.

Check resistances of ignitors on boilers 1 and 3

Boilerpro

Glenn Harrison

Weil Mclain Questions

Bill, I have a couple of questions, if I may.

1st, Does W.M. still make a converesion kit for older induced draft units to upgrade from individual igniton and inducer components to the United Technologies integrated control, and what are the part #'s for said kits? I'm manily thinking of HE and VHE units.

2nd is there any kind of kit available to install a flame sensor on units that only use the ignitor as the sensor?

Thanks,
Glenn Harrison
Service Tech

Chauncey

I had one that had a bad ground

and It ran fine after I plugged it into my droplight, while using a separate power cord. The other thing to check, beyond all the other stuff listed here, is that the pressure tappings are clear. I always remove the hoses and run a drill bit into them by hand.
The part number for the conversion kit to the gold control module (1013-200) is 382-200-448. It is a nice kit. Mike

Bill Wright_2

Glenn, Answers to your questions ...

Of course you can ask me questions !!

1.) Yes, we do have a conversion kit for HE/VHE Spark to GCM (Gold Control Module). Kits include: Gas Valve, GCM, Wiring Harness, HSI & Bracket, & Instructions.
382-200-449 Natural Gas
382-200-450 LP

2.) Yes there is a kit that includes a separate sensor (along w/ a HSI) -- 382-930-216. But this kit only works w/ the Fenwal & Honeywell modules (not w/ the White Rogers).

There are so many variations to this that I really recommend you call our Tech Services -- they will walk you through exactly what you need. You can reach Steve Stultz @ (219) 879-6561 (tell the operator that you are a contractor & you want to speak to Steve ... she'll patch you through).

Bill Wright

Glenn Harrison

Thanks a million, Bill

> Of course you can ask me questions !!

>

> 1.)

> Yes, we do have a conversion kit for HE/VHE Spark

> to GCM (Gold Control Module). Kits include: Gas

> Valve, GCM, Wiring Harness, HSI & Bracket, &

> Instructions. 382-200-449 Natural

> Gas 382-200-450 LP

>

> 2.) Yes there is a kit

> that includes a separate sensor (along w/ a HSI)

> -- 382-930-216. But this kit only works w/ the

> Fenwal & Honeywell modules (not w/ the White

> Rogers).

>

> There are so many variations to this

> that I really recommend you call our Tech

> Services -- they will walk you through exactly

> what you need. You can reach Steve Stultz @

> (219) 879-6561 (tell the operator that you are a

> contractor & you want to speak to Steve ...

> she'll patch you through).

>

> Bill Wright

Glenn Harrison

Thanks a million, Bill

That info is extremely helpfull. The last time I went to order one of the U.T. G.C.M. Kits, my W.M. distributor said they were no longer avalable. Very glad to know they still are. One other thing, is there a kit # for converting units that have H.S.I. individual components in them, like the Fenwell, Honeywell, or White Rodgers module in it?

Thanks agian,

Glenn Harrison