Gas and DIY'ers

todd s

I read this today in the local paper. I don't know all the facts. If you don't know what you're doing call someone who does, I feel for these guys but just another example of something we all know too well. http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2002/12/05/acgas.htm

Mike T., Swampeast MO

What I would like to know

is how the LP company was negligent...or if they merely had the deepest pockets.

If it was stupidity on the part of the DIYers involved then why was the gas co. held liable?

If it was the failure of the gas co., then why blame DIYers?

ed wallace

gas explosion

it never stps amazing me what lawyers can pull off if those idiots had not been changing the waterheater they would be doing ok today sounds like they did not know propane is heavier than air yet the jury felt the pian of the victim like the jury in the mickey ds coffee case how do you protect idiots from them selves? lock them in a rubber lined room? o yea they would be harmed by the rubber walls

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ScottMP

Actually Ed.

The off gassing from the rubber walls would effect thier thinking and there for it would not be their fault that they used the rubber drinking cup which has a chemical make up and caused them to forget they were in a rubber room and where not able to pay there back taxes and .......

It allways some one else's fault with some people.

Lucky for us the Lawyers (liars) are able to find some one who was responsible for every ones problems.

AAAGGGGGG

Scott



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kelleytimandjulie1332

I fail to see how a person can find fault with anbody involved from that article. The only pertinent information it gives out is that one of the plaintiffs was a gas mechanic for Con. Ed.
I think many people get unduly upset at things like this, and The McDonalds Coffee suit which has been twisted completely out of recognition. It seems we never get the full story on anything anymore. Sometimes purposely, sometimes not. I am sure there are plenty of frivolous lawsuits out there, but I can't find enough information to have an informed opinion on this one. TK

ed wallace

the article explained it preety well the man might have worked for the gas co. but propane is differant than natural gas propane is heavier than air nat gas is not they should not have been working on it they the victims were the cause of the gas explosion not the propane co.
as for the macdonalds and coffee law suit the facts are the woman went to mickey ds with her son driving they bought coffee at drive thru window she place hot coffee cup between her thighs son started car lid came loose she got burnt she sues and wins how in hell did she not know coffee is hot?

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Walt

Stella Liebeck was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when she ordered coffee at the drive-through window of a local McDonald's.

After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and stopped so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled into her lap. Liebeck suffered third-degree burns over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas.

She was hospitalized for eight days, and underwent skin grafting and debridement treatments. Liebeck sought to settle her claim for $20,000 essentially, the cost of her medical bills but McDonald's refused.

During the trial, it was discovered that:

More than 700 claims of burns by McDonald's coffee including third-degree burns were registered with McDonald's between 1982 and 1992.


McDonald's held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees Fahrenheit. (Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees).


A McDonald's quality assurance manager admitted that the coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured, was not fit for consumption.


Another expert testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burns to human skin in 2 to 7 seconds.
After hearing these facts the jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages, which was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20% at fault in the spill.

The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonald's coffee sales. The judge then reduced the punitive award to $480,000 even though he called McDonald's conduct reckless, callous and willful. That amount was further reduced in a later settlement.

What happened to the coffee that caused third-degree burns? A post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the McDonald's had dropped to a safe temperature of 158 degrees.

ed wallace

lawyers

we have to many lawyers and not enough sharks to feed them to

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Walt

That reminds me of a crack that my Dad made after I landed my first law job after law school. Since you first have to go to undergraduate and then to law school (and I did a masters degree in between the two), for years my Dad had been saying, "When are you going to get a job, for Christ's sake!?" So finally I said, "Hey....I finally got that job that you have been after me about." He said, "I meant that you should be an HONEST job."

kelleytimandjulie1332

Ed, You're making my argument for me. No where in the article does it state how the explosion ocurred, nor how the propane company was deemed liable. Yet you seem to have based an opinion on the matter based upon the article. Whether he should or should not have been working on the water heater is another argument altogether. I just think a lot of news we get is either poor journalism, or purposely lacking information "because it's a better story that way". Mike T. Swampeast Mo.'s post says it pretty well. just not enough information IMHO.TK

kevin_5

Thanks for the thick skin Walt

Since I perceive you're not easily offended, I will pass on a joke I heard recently. How do tell the difference between a dead attorney and a dead skunk on the highway? Simple, there are skid marks before the skunk.
You seem like a nice fella, it seems that 99% of the lawyers give the rest a bad name! :-) Kevin

todd s

My Intention was

To point out the fact that none of the people named were propane gas servicemen or even qualified plumbers. Just because a guy works for a utility doesn't mean that they are experienced with propane. I just get sick of these people that do stupid things then get a payday. For example we went to change a boiler and homeowner was so proud to show us his new oil tank with a speedystop on the bottom of the tank and compression fittings. He might have done the work for Sue. These people were all trying to do the right thing or lend a hand and when a disaster occurs its not THEIR fault. I guess next time I get zapped at work I can sue the electric utility because they never sat me down and told me electric could be dangerous.

ed wallace

lawyers

amazing a lawyer with a sence of humor

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Jackchips

One of

the clearsest narratives of the MacDonalds cases I've seen-thanks

Unknown

Utilities have a habit of

paying off when someone gets injured from the gas even if they are not at fault. They do not like people in court rooms with burns or damage caused by gas. They would rather pay and hope it goes away. I can tell you when I was with the utility that was more the case than not.

ed wallace

stupid people

true story local cop wants to replace his oil tank goes to local supply house asking names of oil techs who will do a replacement oil tank but does not want a permit pulled well he cannot find anyone to do it everyone wants to know what else is illegal in his house ie plumbing and electrical by the way this is the town narcotics officer i told the supply house guys dont give him my name

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Unknown

That reminds me of a story

A homeowner decided to install his own oil tank outside . He used AC condenser pads under the tank . Luckily for the homeowner , the tank legs shot through the pads and got stuck in the ground on a fill up - instead of falling over and rolling down the lawn or worse , crushing the oil driver . The HO still tried blaming our company , even though he had the pads hidden by fencing around the tank - he said the oil driver should have known better . Can you believe this ?

ed wallace

another true story

way back in 1986 a local moron was working on his car after finishing repairs his tools were dirty and it was to hard to clean them with a rag so he puts them in washing machine turns on machine gas and oil soaked tools and washing machine take off like a rocket from basement threw 2 1/2 story house landed about 200 feet away

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Unknown

And I thought washing spare change

in pockets wasnt good for the machine . Another story , happened years ago , I think around here , was that a mother and daughter were trying to pry up their old tiles on the kitchen floor and some idiot told them to use gasoline to help loosen them . The first errant scrape of a prybar on the concrete and the gas ignited . I'm not positive but I believe both of them died in the fire . I am very pro do-it-yourself , but when things like that happen , I'm not so sure .

Duncan_2

RIGHT!!!

I agree nwith Tim Kelley... lots of information was left out.

Which opens up lots of room for speculation.

The article merely said: "The jury found the gas company... negligent in the maintenance of the liquid propane gas system."

I don't know how it is in Orange County NY, but here in Teller County, Propane companies rent the tank and fill it with propane as needed. That's part of the system that's definitely owned by the propane company, though some customers own their own tanks.

Typically, the propane companies also supply the regulator at the tank, and the regulator at the house. A single two stage regulator is pretty much a thing of the past. Usually there's a fair distance from the tank to the house, so higher pressure is needed to overcome pressure drop in the lines.

I honestly can't remember if the propane companies charge the customer for the regulators upon initial installation. If they did, would that make it the customers' property and responsibility? If they don't charge the customer for it, is it the propane co's property and responsibility? I don't know.

Contractors like us supply the gas lines from the tank to the home, the piping inside the home, the final hookup to equipment, piping and equipment safety checks, and final building department inspection call-in.

One of the better propane companies here does the following before hookup. They test all outdoor tank equipment for leaks. They test all house piping at 10 p.s.i. for 24 hours. They test the house pressure regulator for lock out. That is, all appliances are shut off with valves, and pressure in the piping inside the home past the house regulator cannot rise. They require a building department passed inspection. They make a list of all propane appliances, model and serial number and input rating. They will not fill a tank in a home that has run out if they cannot get inside to relight all pilot lights. I'm sure I missed some other precautions they typically take. I don't know of ANY that periodically inspect equipment. And I'm sure there are companies out there that are less meticulous.

My final speculation considers the trial was a trial by jury. Citizens, not experts. I can imagine a good lawyer with photographs of hideously burned victims and testimony of the expertise of the gas mechanic involved. The guy's wife died while he was in a coma! Personally, I wonder if his experience is in residential equipment, or the big stuff?

I agree, Tim the article has little information to go on. Great reporting.

Alan Muller

lawyers and hot coffee....

Thank you for clarifying this. There are many abuses by the Bar, for sure, but IMHO (1) for every litigant receiving an excessive or spectacular judgement (which is the end is frequently reduced anyway....) there are many others who get little or nothing, (2) fear of judgements is a main incentive for manufacturers to try to make safe products.

So, if should not have taken a lawsuit and accompanying publicity to get MacD. so sell coffee at reasonable temperatures, but often that's how the world works.

am

am

Mark Hunt

Darwin Awards runner up


I responded to a "gas leak" call several years ago and found a portly fellow standing on a taping compound bucket holding on to a 1/2" copper pipe.

He was trying to add a hose bib for the pretty divorcee that just moved in next door and mistook the LP gas line for a water line.

I think he said he had been holding his hand over the cut in the copper for a little over an hour.

Mark H



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Greg_4

A court case here in Kansas resulted in a ruling that

the LPG supplier is responsible for the entire system- tank, regulator, piping and finally - any and all equipment attatched to it. Assisting at a recent 'fire of suspicious nature' investigation, the chief investigator told me "If I were a LPG dealer here in Kansas, I'd get out of the business ASAP". He had formerly assumed the property owner is responsible for the LPG system 'after the regulator' until going to court in another fire incident. Of course, the property owner pays for any and all repairs, but a prudent LPG dealer should inspect and regularly service heating and other equipment piped to the tank and never take on a new customer without doing just that. Some simply fill the tank and drive off. Greg

Larry_7

LP/Water Line

We had a similar situation. Odor investigation. Cust smelling gas at refrigerator. Servicman found plumber tapped into a copper line to feed the ice-maker. Problem was that the copper line was gas--not water.

Copper tubing is allowed in our locality for gas. We always identify with labels per codes. I think we're the only ones labeling. The inspectors don't seem too concerned.

Imagine...the last thing you see on Earth is a fireball coming out of your freezer. Scary.

Larry

Mark Hunt

That's


fantastic!

It's a wonder more people aren't killed!

Mark H

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