\"Staple-up With Copper\"

Joannie

General questions for those of you who work with copper radiant systems:

1) Is copper used for "staple-up" designs?

2) How do people address noise issues from expanding copper in a radiant systems?

I don't need very specific information at this point, but some general knowledge would be helpful.

Thanks!

Joannie

hr

Copper, sure

As with any tube material, limiting the temperature swings is the key to preventing movement and noise. You can't stop the thermal expansion movement, but you can control it!

Reset controls and constant circ will help, alot. Keeping the run lengths short will help also. I installed this radiant ceiling recently using copper snaped into ThermoFin transfer plate. I used pex for the loop ends to allow some expansion "space"

Mounting the copper is much easier with the fin as my goal was to turn the entire metal ceiling into a panel radiator.

I'm not sure stapleing directly to the floor from below woulsd be wise, especially with metal staples. Seems you would create a wear and possible pin hole at the point of contact. I'd look at the Sioux Chief tube talon for that type of attachment, or the transfer plates.

The beauty of copper is the output is almost instantanous due, as you well know, to the excellent conductivity. Better not have your lips on a piece of copper when you hit it with 180 degree water Pex is more forgiving that way.

Check with heatboy for info on suspended tube copper systems. (BIG grin)

hot rod

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kevin_5

Staple up the hard way

I am by no means the most experienced one here, but I haven't heard of anyone using copper for staple up. It seems to me it WOULD work, if you could get someone with the patience of Job and the skill of Da Vinci to install it without irreparable kinks everywhere. The design software that I use is for Wirsbo HePex tubing in 3/8 or 1/2"; using copper would no doubt change things as it handles heat differently. Noise is not an issue with expanding Pex tube IF it is addressed up front and installed correctly. I don't know why anyone would WANT to use copper. The process would seem to me a little like lacing one's boots with coat hanger wire. Technically you could do it, but there are other materials that are much more user friendly. At any rate, this is THE place to get all your questions answered.
Best regards, Kevin O. Pulver

kevin_5

See, What'd I tell you?

Hot Rod has a reputation for having the skill of Da Vinci. No doubt he's learned much patience by now as well. Still, a TOTAL copper system in floor joists seems like a Herculean undertaking to me. The pex on the ends would help installation tremendously. Kevin

Joannie

Thanks HR and Kevin

Thanks for taking the time to respond. This forum is great. This kind of information will help to direct the thinking on this job. I appreciate it.

Joannie

hr

My goal on this job

was to not have to solder against the metal ceiling. The pex worked good for that and the expansion. No way I would try soft copper coils between joists and through drilled holes in the joists. Not enough money in the world for that endevor! And I'd be careful with a torch "down under"

hot rod

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John Felciano

Where the

heck is KEN???

It can be done,I've seen the pictures of Ken Secors "staple up copper radiant"I just don't think it's economicaly fesible.

Copper was used for radiant floors and ceilings many winters ago but if they had had pex I'm sure the dead men would have used it.....

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

soft copper coils between joists and through drilled holes

NOT fun! NOT fast! (And nowhere near as pretty as Hot Rod's.) This done ONLY because I was utterly determined to use the current supply temperature.

BUT, it does work very well--LOADS of heat transfer at a very low temperature.

Have never heard a noise from it--even while heating from a cold start (constant circulation after). Was VERY careful to smooth rough edges at the ends of the plates.

Am convinced though that if you can somehow install bare copper rapidly and insulate it well (as Ken claims he does all the time) that it makes an effective radiant system where oxygen diffusion is a moot point.