Please help!! the banging is driving me nuts!!!!!

Odieds69

Odieds69

!st of let me say thanks in advance... Ok 1st off let me give u a quick set up oh the house..(i am a homeowner not a master heating guy so bare with me) Ok from my old boiler i have 2 supple lines coming outwith one of those micro air bleeders on 2 zones 1 for house and 1 for basement..1 for house supples 1st and 2nd floor 1 pipe from the boiler Y's off to supple both floors with baseboard radiators(the old cast iron ones) and the 1 for basement was added last year after i bought the house and noticed the basement had no heat at all(so its the new style baseboard with the fins on the inside and no bleeders)ok so no my problem.... i have bleed the house radiators a number of times and the 1st floor is always fine with no air at all...the 2nd floor however has 2 radiators 1 usually has no air or very very little mix of air and water..the 2nd one had a ton of air but over bleeding it for 3 days got it to where there is some air and water mix..and as for the basement i have no clue how to bleed(well i seen when they installed it they had water run through the boiler and opened a valve in the return line and hooked it to a hose) Anyways to make a long story short a get a lot of banging..sounds like a sledgehammer hitting the radiators and echo through the house...i cant pinpoint it it just seems to be coming from every pipe...is this air in the pipes..if so, how did it get there and how do i stop it from happening....thanks again and sorry for being so winded(i help on other boards relating to computers and find its easier when you know the whole system) welp thanks again!!

~warren

John Felciano

Banging

I would guess that the noise you are hearing is associated more with expansion than air.Do you hear it mostly when the thermostat first turns on?

When metal heats up from say 70* to 180* there is a large amount of expansion and if a pipe or piece of heat is tight against a wall or hanger it will make a variety of clicking,ticking or banging noises.

You need to pinpoint the spot and make neccesary corrections to allow for the expansion.

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Odieds69

Banging

Yes i believe it is mostly when the therostat 1st turns on..sometimes i hear what i would only able to discribe as a loud wistle of like air(like air howling through a slightly open window) then the very loud bang

~Warren

P.S. Do you think that the new copper i put in the basement is doing this

Dale W.

I agree with John

The banging noise sounds like a tight clamp or possibly a long piece of fintube baseboard with no room to expand.

The other problem you have with the air is most likely a piping problem. Where is the circulator?

Dale W.

Odieds69

the cirulator is on the return side of the boiler...i just went down and looked and then new heating in the basement...the way i wanted it wasnt the normal "perimitor" layout of baseboard..i ofcourse wanted it hidden in the walls...in order to do this it goes from boiler up to celling into 1st room, then down wall into baseboard to other side then up wall to celling, then to othere side of house then pretty much rinse and repeat until it makes the loop back at boiler...so with all the ups and downs there has to be hell 150 feet of copper tubing(not incuding the baseboards) that might be getting cought up on something??? looks like it is going to be a busy sunday for me...i also noticed that they ran some of the new copper along the old cast iorn where they actually are touching each other...could there be a problem there also?

Thanks
~Warren

Odieds69

Just thought of something

Ok this might be a goofy questiong, but work with me.. ok if i have 2 zones that turn the water on and off to them zones, but i have 1 return line and the pump or circulator as u guys call it is on the boilers return line, wouldnt it be sucking water from a zone that would be closed, and should the wholse system be filled with water(like should i have water in the 2nd floor radiator when the boiler is off?) 1 time when i bleed the radiators with it off it just sucked air in is that normal or should there have been water that high?

Dale W.

Pumping Away

Have fun finding the banging noise.

Your air problem is probably associated with the location of the tank and cirulator. The best description of this is in a book by Dan. You can find it by going to the top of this thread and clicking on "Books" in the pipe graffic on the left side of the screen.

The book is "Pumping Away and other...".

Dale W.

Dale W.

Not enough pressure

in the system.

In a two story house the normal pressure is 12PSI at the boiler. This will give you about 6-8PSI at the second floor radiator when the circultor is off.

If you had air sucking in the bleeder, you were in a vacuum.
You need to raise the pressure a little. Don't always trust the pressure gauge. The needle can gets stuck on 12PSI and the system can be much lower. Check the gauge.

Dale W.

Greg_4

We had a customer with 'banging' noise that was...

finally attributed to one 'clapper' type valve at the return manifold hanging up. This system was pumping into the boiler, using six separate circulators controlled by T-stats for various zones. Depending upon which zone pump or how many operated, the noise varied from somewhat annoying to extremely obnoxious. Some zones had larger circulators with one-inch lines, others 1/2-inch lines. After some diagnosis and a suggestion to re-pipe the system correctly, which was immediately dismissed by the owner (home was for sale and they just wanted to 'fix it cheap as possible'), we discovered the noises were from one zone only. Replaced the valve and seem to have cured the noise problem, until the next clapper valve dies. It seems that the other zone circulators were fighting against the one with the bad valve, which was allowing water to circulate in reverse and causing the clapper to chatter, but it would not seal off. Previously, the home had several small boilers each heating a zone using dedicated circulators. Another heating contractor replaced these with one very oversized boiler and fouled up the system piping. Along with other problems such as piping too small, run through framing with little or no expansion possibilities, bypassed air bleeder, etc. Greg

Glenn Harrison

You have got to get the pressure up first

Glenn Harrison

You have got to get the pressure up first

You have got to get the system full of water first. If you keep getting air out of the second floor radiator, you don't have enough pressure in the system. I would sugggest you go to the hardware store and get a water pressure test gauge. It's a gauge that typically reads 0 to 100 psi, and has a 3/4" female garden hose connection on it. You can connect this gauge to any drain you have on the system. Turn off the pump and open the drain valve and read the pressure. This will confirm your boiler pressure in case your boiler gauge is inaccurate. As previously stated, you should have 12 psi at the boiler to provide enough "lift" of water to the top of the second floor radiator. If you don't have at least 12 psi, you have a water feed problem. Depending on your system, you may be able to manually feed water into the unit. If you can feed it to about 20 psi and then bleed the upstairs rads. with the system off. You may have to refeed the system as you bleed to maintain the pressure, depending on how much air there is. Once you have the rads bled, set the pressure to 12 psi and cycle all zones and see how it works. If you still hear a lot of "whooshing", You will need to bleed it again. I' will tell you that with the pump on the return side, you will not get the system completely silent with manual bleeding, but you should get pretty close. The auto vents should take ou the rest over time.I'm thinking that there is the possibility that you noise is due to severe air and a lack of water pressure in the system, especially if you are sucking air in thru the bleeders with the pump running. Either way, if you don't have the 12 psi, you will need to replace your pressure reducing valve to automatically feed the 12 psi into the system in the future. If you can't manually feed the system to 12 psi, replace the pressure reducing (feed) valve before going any further. Ultimatly, you have got to get the systm air free and pressurized 1st, before you can go any further.

Of course, if your not comfortable with any of this, call your contractor or click on "Find a Contractor" in the pipe on the left.

Another thought, do you have one thermostat that controls the boiler and pump, or do you have 2 thermostats, each one controlling a zone valve? If you have zone valves, you may be getting "hammer" from the valves opening or closing.

Last, as already suggested, get Dan Holohan's book "Pumping away". It will tell you everything you wanted to know about how to set up your boiler for proper and air free operation.

Odieds69

Perhaps your last staement is correct!!!

OK i did a little fiddleing around in the basement to find out WHEN the banging is happening....yes i have 2 thermostats and this is what i did....1st i turned the house thermostat to 60 so it wouldnt turn on while i was checking, i then went to the basement theremostat and turned it all the way up to get boiler working...after it kicked on i then turned it all the way down to turn it off..i repeated this like 15times and EVERYTIME i turned it OFF it made the BANG and the "whooshing"(i have narrowed the sound to a louder version of water being feed into the boiler or water runing through any pipes for that matter but louder).. so perhaps you are correct that it is the valve inside that zone closing and making a loud banging that carries through the pipes, but the odd thing is i would thing that the vibrations would be hardest from the begining(supple from boiler) however it seems to be hardest from the return side..actually its been banging so hard that it raddle loose the trim piece on the last baseboard... well perhaps we are getting somewhat closer..i have raised the pressure by the way to about 14-16 and am getting water to 2nd floor with it off...(but still bangs) Anyways thanks again

~Warren

Glenn Harrison

What brand of zone valves do you have,

and exactly where are they in the system?