Oil burner lock-out problems

Dennis - Reliable Services

heater was rated at 1 gph and had .85 gph nozzle installed, the heater was oversized for its application so I thought it would be ok this way. After 3 nuisance lockouts in 2 mouths (all at nite) I stopped being stupid and checked the cad cell reading. It was just on the edge of lockout reading. I installed a 1 gph nozzle and my problems ceased.
I did not install this furnace, if I had I would have switched to gas and installed a 45,000 btu model. The house a row was all of 800 sq. ft.

Anthony D.

Oil burner lock-out problems

Having a problem with intermittent lockout of a oil burner. This is a new install, with an underground 550 gal tank. The horizontal furnace is approximately 15ft above tank. We replaced the original single stage pump with a two stage, and yes its two piped from burner to tank. The bypass plug has been installed and there are no leaks in the piping. I'm thinking that the problem might be in the way we installed the supply and return in the tank. Both pipes where brought to the bottom of the tank and both were raised off the bottom at least 6 inches. Someone mentioned that the return pipe should be raised about 4" above the supply tube - could this be the problem? Will the return oil create turbulance and cause foam or bubbles that would lockout burner?
I'm considering installing a motorized transfer pump (MTP)with day tank at this point. Please help!

ed wallace

lockouts

yes having the supply and return lines to close together can cause problems you did not say when the lockouts are happening is it while you are there ? only at night ? more info please

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Jim Davis

Oil burner lock-out

A two line system requires a minimum of 1/2 lines according to the piping charts or this will cause cavitation and air separation from the oil. Never reccomend two line except as a last resort. Two line causes loss of prime every cycle. Add a brass check valve to both the supply and the return at the pump (supply check valve between filter and tank). Should solve your problem.

heatboy

What happens when you reset ..........

the burner? Does it start immediately or does it hesitate. Check your vacuum readings. I'm not sure having fuel lines equal length would cause a great deal of harm. If it is fuel supply problem, add a Tiger Loop and mount it above the burner. Could it be something else? Did you run your combustion tests? What is the excess air to CO2 rating? What burner? Cad cell reading?

Warm Regards,

hb

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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Anthony D.

When the burner is reset it usually starts right up. Once it started abit hard (I assume it was a delayed start).
An efficiency test was performed, and yes vacuum check was done and within limits. What is and what does a Tiger Loop do? Its a Beckett burner, and I didnt check cad cell reading.

Anthony D.

Its intermittent, and the building is unoccuppied at this time, but the owner stops in every day or two and find the burner tripped. It ran for about three weeks since we put a two stage pump on the burner, and recently started to lock-out. I even reflared all connections, and added check valves, a larger filter, and time delay valve in nozzle line.

Anthony D.

The lines are 1/2" OD, and I forgot to mention that we did put check valves in after this started happening. Do you think I should convert it to a one pipe design?

ed wallace

lockouts

do you know anyone who has an Onwatch system that you could borrow it realy works it monitors the system and records whats going on its exspensive but it works i got one this year and it helped me solve a problem with a wierd lockout

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chris smith_2

tiger loop

anthony,
check out this link thease tiger loops can be very useful

http://www.oventrop.de/en/products/hbtd/08_2122900.pdf

chris smith

paradise porter maine

Jim Davis

One line system with two stage pump, check valve between filter and tank works everytime if there are no leaks.

John G. Merritt

Burner lockout

Anthony,

I don't think you have a fuel problem here.
Check your readings on the Cad cell.

John

Anthony D.

Never heard of an onwatch system. What is it and how does it work?

Anthony D.

I always thought it was best to use two pipe when pulling up a lift! Whats the limitation of a one pipe setup?

ed wallace

On watch

here is the web site for Onwatch
www.onwatch electronics.com

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John G. Merritt

Pump lift

Anthony:

1pipe lift= up to 8 feet.

John

Joe Grosso

Anthony

A ON Watch is a computer set up that will monitor all the components on your oil or gas system that you keep on the job until the unit goes on lock out.Then when you go to the job it will give you a read out of what caused the unit to lock out.Bingo problem solved.By the way are you a burner tech or are you a hvac/plumber .Any other questions on this unit feel free to ask.I have one it will save the hair on your head from falling out or turning gray:)

John G. Merritt

On Watch

Anthony,
"On Watch" is an Oil Burner monitor that uses several sensors to check pump pressure & vacuum, electrical voltage, stack temperature,Ignition transformer, etc.
I bought mine used and if you're going to service Oil Burners, it's a good investment, if a call comes in 2 0r 3
times in a short period. Sorry I can't give you the company address, but you might check with FireDragon.com.

John

ed wallace

lockouts

give us an idea of where you are maybe someone on the wall is close to you and might have an onwatch system that he could do a demonstation for your boss

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Anthony D.

I'm a former HVAC technician turned owner. Haven't done much field work over the past couple years, but like to stay in touch, and unfortunately don't have anyone working for me like many of the fine professionals using this website. It amazes me how guys can go home at the end of the day and shut-off the problems from the day, and never reflect on them! This is the stuff that makes you a great technicain, and creates the value that all business owners (and clients) are looking for.

Thanks for the help! (and for the chance to vent a little)

"Be all that you can be"

Jamie_6

lock out

On startup press the reset button, when the burner starts hit the reset button again and hold. If their is fire burning in the box, you may have a transformer problem,or other iginition problem.If theres no fire its going to be oil problem. If you have a electronic sight glass put in on the oil line it will tell you if you have air in the line good luck

jim f

motor??

came across many situations were there was a flat spot on the motor.

Anthony D.

Putnam County, New York. I am the boss, and would love to know more about this tool.

I guess adding the Motorized Transfer Pump (MTP) and day tank, is not something that should be considered at this point? And, Since I can't convert to one-pipe because the lift is more than what is recommended, it must be either the fact that both supply and return are at same height in the tank, or its a problem other that oil flow?

How do you guys normally do a two-pipe underground tank. (How far down do you put the supply and return?) We installed two 1/2" blk nipples to the undrside of the duplex adapter, and ran the 1/2" OD copper lines through the inside with a compression ftg at the top of the duplex. The compression ftg only seals off water getting into the tank (this is not an oil connection).

WOW It amazes me how many people are out there helping others!!
Thank you for your help.

Joe Grosso

Anthony

I am in westchester county.Where in putnam are you located.Maybe I can getup there to see you and the job if I get a break.Have my own fuel oil business in nyc and westchester so I know what you mean by being the owner you installed it get it to run right.It can make you pull your hair out.By the way what brand burner and model are you using.

Anthony D.

Thanks Joe, But I dont want to inconvience you.

The job is actually in Wappinger Falls, which is Dutchess County. I'm going up there today to spend some time with it.

Anthony D.

Chris,
Just checked out the tiger loop - Thank you!
But it says they are for one-pipe system, and I need to use a two-pipe since the lift is more than 15 ft., but will keep in mind for one-pipe systems.

Tim Doran

Just curious

How many inches of vacume are you drawing? If it is over 11" the oil will seperate "off gas" and this may look and act like an air leak or fuel starvation. Also, what were your readings on the Combustion test?

Tim D.

Artie

Lock Out

Does anyone know where a Small day tank can be purchased or Reservoir tank  , Tried everything  have 3 boilers , 2 stage pumps , 2 pipe system , , converted to Tiger loops , no leaks, just installed check valve Have site glasses vacuum gauges in piping at different areas I still have intermittent Lock outs when Air somehow is is mixing with Oil, This is a in ground 550 gallon tank with 10' lift total lift  25 ' horizontal line and then down to 8' drop to Boilers manifold in basement. 1/2"supply return lines . Supply Line holds vacuum when boilers shut down  

billtwocase

oops

old post

icesailor

Lock Out: Start New Thread:

I think you have some other problem. If yoiu have a Tigerloop, it will always start with oil. A Tigerloop is a check valve. Where are you putting a check valve?

You put a tigerloop on each burner? Does each burner have its own supplu back to the tank? You can't tie them together into a common supply.

clammy

OIl pump question

Dennis what type of 2 stage pump did you use a suntec b? I question this because in the past i also have had lock out issue with horizontal hot air furnaces whih where installed above the tank usually in automotive garages (always had promblems on every job like that)  After doing exactly what you did i  changed the  A pump to a B  pump but still had issues and then  i realized that the older burners pump was a 2 stage either j or h style  pump (cannot remember was a long time ago) I went back to the shop i worked at and got the larger 2 stage pump and installed it and that was that the end of the lock outs and issues .As a note for the future when you see a larger pump J or H on a over head burner remenber to get one for the new install and i know it worked without issues for a short time but it always seemed to bite me in the #ss later on.As for the day tank set up last time i needed one for a replacement (a few years ago ) i was totally unable to locate one and ended up going with a transfer pump set up with pressure swithes not my favorite set up what an one do .As for tiger loops i usually always like to use them i am not a big fan on recirc oil and all that extra filtering that goes on espically when you are filter 18 gpm and only burner 1 or 2 gph espically on a older in ground tank it gets to be a real hassel after oil tank fills and changing filter 2 or 3 times a heating season.Also as a side note is the burner equipted with oil delay valve and a setable pre and post purge oil ad relay if so set it up for a little bit longer pre time and that should help make sure you have a stead oil supply as the 2 pipe oil set up should self bleed it self and help you by not going into lock lock.Sorry for the long post and i hope this help you out hate pulling my hair out sepically since there ain't much left .Peace and good luck  clammy

billtwocase

Clammy

I made the same mistake, this post is from 2002?