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Oil burner lock-out problems

Dennis - Reliable Services
Dennis - Reliable Services Member Posts: 79
in THE MAIN WALL
heater was rated at 1 gph and had .85 gph nozzle installed, the heater was oversized for its application so I thought it would be ok this way. After 3 nuisance lockouts in 2 mouths (all at nite) I stopped being stupid and checked the cad cell reading. It was just on the edge of lockout reading. I installed a 1 gph nozzle and my problems ceased.
I did not install this furnace, if I had I would have switched to gas and installed a 45,000 btu model. The house a row was all of 800 sq. ft.

Comments

  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63
    Oil burner lock-out problems

    Having a problem with intermittent lockout of a oil burner. This is a new install, with an underground 550 gal tank. The horizontal furnace is approximately 15ft above tank. We replaced the original single stage pump with a two stage, and yes its two piped from burner to tank. The bypass plug has been installed and there are no leaks in the piping. I'm thinking that the problem might be in the way we installed the supply and return in the tank. Both pipes where brought to the bottom of the tank and both were raised off the bottom at least 6 inches. Someone mentioned that the return pipe should be raised about 4" above the supply tube - could this be the problem? Will the return oil create turbulance and cause foam or bubbles that would lockout burner?
    I'm considering installing a motorized transfer pump (MTP)with day tank at this point. Please help!
  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    lockouts

    yes having the supply and return lines to close together can cause problems you did not say when the lockouts are happening is it while you are there ? only at night ? more info please

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  • Jim Davis
    Jim Davis Member Posts: 305
    Oil burner lock-out

    A two line system requires a minimum of 1/2 lines according to the piping charts or this will cause cavitation and air separation from the oil. Never reccomend two line except as a last resort. Two line causes loss of prime every cycle. Add a brass check valve to both the supply and the return at the pump (supply check valve between filter and tank). Should solve your problem.
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
    What happens when you reset ..........

    the burner? Does it start immediately or does it hesitate. Check your vacuum readings. I'm not sure having fuel lines equal length would cause a great deal of harm. If it is fuel supply problem, add a Tiger Loop and mount it above the burner. Could it be something else? Did you run your combustion tests? What is the excess air to CO2 rating? What burner? Cad cell reading?

    Warm Regards,

    hb

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    When the burner is reset it usually starts right up. Once it started abit hard (I assume it was a delayed start).
    An efficiency test was performed, and yes vacuum check was done and within limits. What is and what does a Tiger Loop do? Its a Beckett burner, and I didnt check cad cell reading.
  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    Its intermittent, and the building is unoccuppied at this time, but the owner stops in every day or two and find the burner tripped. It ran for about three weeks since we put a two stage pump on the burner, and recently started to lock-out. I even reflared all connections, and added check valves, a larger filter, and time delay valve in nozzle line.

  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    The lines are 1/2" OD, and I forgot to mention that we did put check valves in after this started happening. Do you think I should convert it to a one pipe design?

  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    lockouts

    do you know anyone who has an Onwatch system that you could borrow it realy works it monitors the system and records whats going on its exspensive but it works i got one this year and it helped me solve a problem with a wierd lockout

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  • chris smith_2
    chris smith_2 Member Posts: 37
    tiger loop

    anthony,
    check out this link thease tiger loops can be very useful

    http://www.oventrop.de/en/products/hbtd/08_2122900.pdf

    chris smith

    paradise porter maine
  • Jim Davis
    Jim Davis Member Posts: 305


    One line system with two stage pump, check valve between filter and tank works everytime if there are no leaks.
  • John G. Merritt
    John G. Merritt Member Posts: 140
    Burner lockout

    Anthony,

    I don't think you have a fuel problem here.
    Check your readings on the Cad cell.

    John
  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    Never heard of an onwatch system. What is it and how does it work?
  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    I always thought it was best to use two pipe when pulling up a lift! Whats the limitation of a one pipe setup?
  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    On watch

    here is the web site for Onwatch
    www.onwatch electronics.com

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  • John G. Merritt
    John G. Merritt Member Posts: 140
    Pump lift

    Anthony:

    1pipe lift= up to 8 feet.

    John
  • Joe Grosso
    Joe Grosso Member Posts: 307
    Anthony

    A ON Watch is a computer set up that will monitor all the components on your oil or gas system that you keep on the job until the unit goes on lock out.Then when you go to the job it will give you a read out of what caused the unit to lock out.Bingo problem solved.By the way are you a burner tech or are you a hvac/plumber .Any other questions on this unit feel free to ask.I have one it will save the hair on your head from falling out or turning gray:)
  • John G. Merritt
    John G. Merritt Member Posts: 140
    On Watch

    Anthony,
    "On Watch" is an Oil Burner monitor that uses several sensors to check pump pressure & vacuum, electrical voltage, stack temperature,Ignition transformer, etc.
    I bought mine used and if you're going to service Oil Burners, it's a good investment, if a call comes in 2 0r 3
    times in a short period. Sorry I can't give you the company address, but you might check with FireDragon.com.

    John
  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    lockouts

    give us an idea of where you are maybe someone on the wall is close to you and might have an onwatch system that he could do a demonstation for your boss

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  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    I'm a former HVAC technician turned owner. Haven't done much field work over the past couple years, but like to stay in touch, and unfortunately don't have anyone working for me like many of the fine professionals using this website. It amazes me how guys can go home at the end of the day and shut-off the problems from the day, and never reflect on them! This is the stuff that makes you a great technicain, and creates the value that all business owners (and clients) are looking for.

    Thanks for the help! (and for the chance to vent a little)

    "Be all that you can be"
  • Jamie_6
    Jamie_6 Member Posts: 710
    lock out

    On startup press the reset button, when the burner starts hit the reset button again and hold. If their is fire burning in the box, you may have a transformer problem,or other iginition problem.If theres no fire its going to be oil problem. If you have a electronic sight glass put in on the oil line it will tell you if you have air in the line good luck
  • jim f
    jim f Member Posts: 182
    motor??

    came across many situations were there was a flat spot on the motor.
  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    Putnam County, New York. I am the boss, and would love to know more about this tool.

    I guess adding the Motorized Transfer Pump (MTP) and day tank, is not something that should be considered at this point? And, Since I can't convert to one-pipe because the lift is more than what is recommended, it must be either the fact that both supply and return are at same height in the tank, or its a problem other that oil flow?

    How do you guys normally do a two-pipe underground tank. (How far down do you put the supply and return?) We installed two 1/2" blk nipples to the undrside of the duplex adapter, and ran the 1/2" OD copper lines through the inside with a compression ftg at the top of the duplex. The compression ftg only seals off water getting into the tank (this is not an oil connection).

    WOW It amazes me how many people are out there helping others!!
    Thank you for your help.
  • Joe Grosso
    Joe Grosso Member Posts: 307
    Anthony

    I am in westchester county.Where in putnam are you located.Maybe I can getup there to see you and the job if I get a break.Have my own fuel oil business in nyc and westchester so I know what you mean by being the owner you installed it get it to run right.It can make you pull your hair out.By the way what brand burner and model are you using.
  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    Thanks Joe, But I dont want to inconvience you.

    The job is actually in Wappinger Falls, which is Dutchess County. I'm going up there today to spend some time with it.
  • Anthony D.
    Anthony D. Member Posts: 63


    Chris,
    Just checked out the tiger loop - Thank you!
    But it says they are for one-pipe system, and I need to use a two-pipe since the lift is more than 15 ft., but will keep in mind for one-pipe systems.
  • Tim Doran
    Tim Doran Member Posts: 208
    Just curious

    How many inches of vacume are you drawing? If it is over 11" the oil will seperate "off gas" and this may look and act like an air leak or fuel starvation. Also, what were your readings on the Combustion test?

    Tim D.
  • Artie
    Artie Member Posts: 1
    Lock Out

    Does anyone know where a Small day tank can be purchased or Reservoir tank  , Tried everything  have 3 boilers , 2 stage pumps , 2 pipe system , , converted to Tiger loops , no leaks, just installed check valve Have site glasses vacuum gauges in piping at different areas I still have intermittent Lock outs when Air somehow is is mixing with Oil, This is a in ground 550 gallon tank with 10' lift total lift  25 ' horizontal line and then down to 8' drop to Boilers manifold in basement. 1/2"supply return lines . Supply Line holds vacuum when boilers shut down  
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    edited February 2011
    oops

    old post
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Lock Out: Start New Thread:

    I think you have some other problem. If yoiu have a Tigerloop, it will always start with oil. A Tigerloop is a check valve. Where are you putting a check valve?

    You put a tigerloop on each burner? Does each burner have its own supplu back to the tank? You can't tie them together into a common supply.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,138
    OIl pump question

    Dennis what type of 2 stage pump did you use a suntec b? I question this because in the past i also have had lock out issue with horizontal hot air furnaces whih where installed above the tank usually in automotive garages (always had promblems on every job like that)  After doing exactly what you did i  changed the  A pump to a B  pump but still had issues and then  i realized that the older burners pump was a 2 stage either j or h style  pump (cannot remember was a long time ago) I went back to the shop i worked at and got the larger 2 stage pump and installed it and that was that the end of the lock outs and issues .As a note for the future when you see a larger pump J or H on a over head burner remenber to get one for the new install and i know it worked without issues for a short time but it always seemed to bite me in the #ss later on.As for the day tank set up last time i needed one for a replacement (a few years ago ) i was totally unable to locate one and ended up going with a transfer pump set up with pressure swithes not my favorite set up what an one do .As for tiger loops i usually always like to use them i am not a big fan on recirc oil and all that extra filtering that goes on espically when you are filter 18 gpm and only burner 1 or 2 gph espically on a older in ground tank it gets to be a real hassel after oil tank fills and changing filter 2 or 3 times a heating season.Also as a side note is the burner equipted with oil delay valve and a setable pre and post purge oil ad relay if so set it up for a little bit longer pre time and that should help make sure you have a stead oil supply as the 2 pipe oil set up should self bleed it self and help you by not going into lock lock.Sorry for the long post and i hope this help you out hate pulling my hair out sepically since there ain't much left .Peace and good luck  clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    Clammy

    I made the same mistake, this post is from 2002?
This discussion has been closed.

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