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Hot Air Rules

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating
Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating Member Posts: 1,361
in THE MAIN WALL
when you consider that the large houses have 2 or 3 furnaces, over the course of a few decades those people will spend a fortune on forced hot air furnaces- a lot more than radiant would have cost, plus all the other reasons- if your looking for the lowest cost in the long run go radiant. bob
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Comments

  • Timothy S. Plennum
    Timothy S. Plennum Member Posts: 3
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    Hot Air Rules!!!!

    I, as a warm air comfort installer am tired of hearing you guys trash warm air (scorched air). In my opinion when it really comes down to comfort, cost, and reliability it is the best heat out there. Oh sure you guys will throw out all your radiant garbage talk, but our systems are well over 90% efficient, when there is a problem, its less expensive to repair, your house heats up much faster then with h/w, steam, or radiant. Lets not even get into hydro-air. I will debate this anywhere anytime. Steam is so uncomfortable, never mind the knocks and pings, and those noisy baseboard hw systems..warm air comfort is the only way to go. Tim
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    The only way...........

    to win an argument is to avoid it. You are certainly entittled to your opinion and thanks for sharing it here. How much hydronic heating do you do? You must do a fair amount to have formed the opinions you espouse. What problems have you faced? I am sure the people here can solve any issues you would face.

    Warm Regards,

    hb

    "Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,543
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    Steam

    shouldn't knock or ping. We can show you how to solve those problems and improve your business.

    Retired and loving it.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Member Posts: 159
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    90%?

    Try this yourself, do a heatloss on a building using a method for your hot air furnaces. Then do a heatloss on the same building using a method for hydronic radiant heat. You notice that the total btu's needed are significantly less for the radiant, than the hot air furnace. Yes the combustion efficiency may be better, but how much of that hot air actually heats the home? Is a 100,000btu gas furnace running at 90% combustion efficiency better than a 75,000btu oil fired boiler running at 86% efficiency? Lets not add that this boiler will also heat the domestic hot water. If you want quick response to heat up an area quickly,than just use a fan coil. When (not if) a hot air furnace heat exchanger leaks, the CO goes straight into the ductwork. Not to mention the big humidifier needed.
    I also install a few hot air furnaces, but the two don't compare. The only thing about a warm air furnace that may appeal to anyone is the cheap cost to install. As Heatboy, and Dan said....stick around and you might learn something. I know I have....

    Casmo
    Dependable P.H.C. Inc.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,543
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    Classy answer

    and one I'm sure is appreciated by the thousands of homeowners who read the wall but don't post. Good solid information delivered in a mature, professional manner. Thanks.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Don_2
    Don_2 Member Posts: 47
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    Timothy,Now thats no way to make friends.Now I respect
    your feelin's when it come to one trade bashing another trade for there practice and how one go about giving the customer the best comfort that they can give for there limited budget.
    Yes we have made many improvement on how we deliver force air to a envelope.With variable speed blower and two stage
    equipment,not to mention the one thing our wethead brother can't do with there system and that is addressing IAQ.
    With that said,You have to understand that they do have the edge on us when it come to comfort,why? We have several factor that affect our system.
    1-Air pressure,2-Air temperature stratification,3-stack effect.And its these three factor that effect our comfort level with our system.And withforce air they will always exist.
    I got several wet system in,and I must say they kick our butt when it come to comfort.Peace
  • Boilerpro
    Boilerpro Member Posts: 410
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    System efficiency..The real McCoy not AFU

    > I, as a warm air comfort installer am tired of

    > hearing you guys trash warm air (scorched air).

    > In my opinion when it really comes down to

    > comfort, cost, and reliability it is the best

    > heat out there. Oh sure you guys will throw out

    > all your radiant garbage talk, but our systems

    > are well over 90% efficient, when there is a

    > problem, its less expensive to repair, your house

    > heats up much faster then with h/w, steam, or

    > radiant. Lets not even get into hydro-air. I will

    > debate this anywhere anytime. Steam is so

    > uncomfortable, never mind the knocks and pings,

    > and those noisy baseboard hw systems..warm air

    > comfort is the only way to go. Tim



  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
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    Welcome aboard Tim

    We do both forced air and hydronic heat. Just about all of our business in new construction is hydronic. A lot of replacement work in the forced air market around here. Granted, I don't go after, indeed I avoid, the $$$$$$bidding game a lot of the builders play around here. How's this one? 1700 sq ft ranch with full finished basement. Forced air system with A/C installed for $4800. What kind of a job did that HO get for his money??? A single return for the whole house. One zone, thermostat on the main level, hows it going to know when the basement is cool??? Aarghhhh! I'm begining to rant. It ticks me off when customers are led to believe they are getting a good value and will in fact NEVER be comfortable as long as they live in that home. But that's another story!!!

    I just wanted to welcome you to THE WALL and encourage you to hang around. You'll find it a fun place to be and filled with very smart people from both sides of the heating fence. Even a lot of 'em who cross over and do both kinds of work. Like my company.

    As far as the comfort thing goes I'll just relay a comment that a customer of mine made to me just last week. I had taken a prospective customer to the home to show her the panel rads we installed. The 2 ladies (HO and prospect) and myself were chatting just before we left. And the HO made this statement to the gal who was shopping. It was truly unsolicited. "This is the 12th home we have built and we've lived in it over a year now. We've had all types of heating systems in the other homes. I don't even know what they were. My husband and I were both saying just the other day that this is the first home in which we have never been aware of the heating system. There's no noise, no air blowing, no dust, it just always feels good in the house and there's not even a thermostat."

    I have to tell you I have yet to hear that type of comment from anyone we have done a forced air job for, and we try to do those correctly also. There's just a difference in the physics of the heat that no amount of engineering or variable speed fans can overcome. You can't go against the simple laws of Mother Nature. You'll lose every time.
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
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    Forced air and hydronics go hand in hand.

    Numerous people have already pointed out that in order to address IAQ problems that you MUST move air. No way around it.

    The advantages of hydronic heating, regardless of whether its air or radiant transfer are obviously many more than forced air. If it weren't, this industry and this web site would not exist.

    You have a lot to learn my friend, and everyone at this location is willing to help you learn. Maybe you can repay us by teaching us what you know about moving air...

    Just one last question, why are you hanging out here at The Wall?

    ME

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  • mike terry
    mike terry Member Posts: 33
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    more input

    well i work for a company that you would say is in the forced air biz, we do mainly commercial work and lots of it.
    we also do residential. there used to be tons of steam and hot water in this town,it wasnt that there was any thing wrong with these systems,it was that heat pump sales man were that good.it was very seductive to the homeowners to have the bonus of A/c..and for the folks that used to carry coal cinders out every morning oil and gas forced air seemed like a great idea. i know im not telling anybody things they dont know..but i go to houses every day and look at these force air jake leg pieces of crap that are falling apart,,sure there are a few good examples of craftsmanship but not many....it is true that most first time home builders have been listning to thier nieghbors for so long ..they expect to get a forced air system put in for 2000.00 and they get what they pay for...crap. Im trying to push radiant,steam ...whatever but most of the time the best you are able to do is sell a dual fuel set up Unless you can get a general contractor on your side its tuff.There are some truely high end home built in the early 60 s that have floor heat no perimeter insulation and all the bad stuff you run into.I have a customer that him and his wife moved into a nice house...it has all terazzo floors and tons of masonery. it has what looks to be a fully functional floor heat system honeywell aquatrol setup with this big motorized mixing valve simply lovly.but he wont turn it on...nieghbors told him it would get too hot in the house it should only be used in the low teens. i tried to explain that we can lower the water temp but it falls on deaf ears. so he runs 4 big gas furnaces which are really there more for the big nortec humidifiers ....any way i got off on a tangent..guess what im trying to say is that around here even if you have foor heat your still gonna need a/c and if your gonna have a/c a few more bucks gets thst heat pump which does work nice down to about 40 anycolder than that turn on the real heat..its not worth the argument that warm floor speaks for itself
  • Jeff Lawrence
    Jeff Lawrence Member Posts: 6
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    Forced Air

    Or Scorched air?

    I have been a forced air installer virtually all my career and I continue to install replacement FA equipment. It's true that the efficiency of the FA can actually approach 92% or better, but as some one said, you can have drafts, cool spots and even a dead zone where it gets almost uncomfortly cool before the heat comes back on. You also have to realize that you have to change filters on a FA system and clean ductwork sometimes.

    I am located in the Southern USA, Georgia to be specific. We have to have the FA systems to have the necessary cooling to make the south liveable.

    I enjoy doing the wet heat because of the comfort level it gives my customers.
  • Boilerpro
    Boilerpro Member Posts: 410
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    System efficiency..The real McCoy not AFUE

    I think you hit the nail on the nail on the head....What really matters is system efficiency, not the efficiency rating of the unit making heat. Agreed, there are alot of 90% efficiency furnaces out there (and not many 90% boilers), but 90% efficient systems? These are pretty rare not matter what type of system. For boilers you have convective, radiant and conductive heat lost from the piping before it gets to the spaces being heated. For furnaces you have the same problem with ductwork, plus all the tiny little air leaks from the ductwork....unless you've embraced the new special ductsealing technologies. Once you get the air to the space, does the system increase or decrease the heat loss from the space. Systems that create alot of hot air stratification....convective steam, convective hot water(without reset), and on/off nonmodulating furnaces I think all fit this category. 80F air temps at ceilings are bound to create more conductive heat loss through exterior ceilings than 70F air temps, in addition to the fact that the hot air rising creates a stack effect inside a structure that increases warm air leakage at the top of the space and cold air infiltration at the bottom. If you add the pressurizing/ depressurizing effect of blowers from hot air furnaces (again especially on/off single speed units) and hot water coils creating additional air leakage and infiltration, system efficiency drops some more. Then there's the more subjective question, at what air temperature are people going to be comfortable with each type of system. Systems that move air in the space naturally increase evaporative cooling from the body....just like the breeze from a fan in the summer. This again puts any on/of nonmodulting system at a disadvantage. Systems with the most air movement are going to require higher indoor air temperatures for comfort and higher air temperatures increase the rate of heat loss from structure. And then there is the less understood issue of mean radiant temperature....this is the funny one. Systems that keep the surfaces that surround people warmer are going to create more comfort. Its hard to find a less comfortable place than sitting next to an uninsulated brick wall on a cold day...it chills you to the bone. On the other hand not much is more comforatable than sitting in front of a warm fire.... a great generator of radiant heat. I'm guessing this is why hot air supplies are now placed on outside walls, and returns on inside....It used to be the other way around. Keeping that outside wall surface warmer will keep the radiant temp higher, making people feel warmer. The same goes for hot water and steam convection....they are on the outside walls to wash the wall with warm air to keep the surface warmer and allow a lower thermostat setting (reading mostly air temp)for the same comfort level. When you get into systems that produce alot of radiant heat...ie. radiant floor (hot air, hot water, steam, electric), or radiators in space(cast iron baseboard, cast iron radiators, radiant panels), you have higher mean radiant temps and lower air temps for the same comfort....just like air conditioning in the summer, but reversed.
    No matter what type of systems you install, communicating these concepts to your clients can help you sell a better system for your client. You can show them that a 90% efficienct furnace with modulating gas train and blower will save more than just 10% to 12 % on thier bills over a nonmodulating 80% furnace. The better unit will increase the system efficiency, cutting air leakage from the home, reduce wasted heat from the ductwork, and increase the owner's comfort. You can also show them how a radiant system, whether hot air or hot water, can provide even better system efficiency and comfort over a ducted air system or hot water convectors.

    While I sign my posts Boilerpro, I arrived in the hot water/ steam heating field after doing energy consulting work and training in mechanical engineering and architecture. I just became convinced by the numbers and the experiences of others that hot water heat can be a better heating system..... when properly designed and installed, I must add. Besides there is virtually no competition in my six county area for someone who has a good understanding of these systems. For a very large percentage of my work, there is no competive bidding... no wasted time spent on preparing bids that are not accepted. It makes for a much more profitable businness, while being able to provide higher quality service at lower cost.


    Boilerpro
  • Dale W.
    Dale W. Member Posts: 42
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    Plennum/Plenum?

    Timothy,

    We are a company that does both forced air and hydronics. The majority of our area (Delaware) is forced air. 99% of the new construction is forced air. We repair and replace furnaces, heat pumps and boilers.

    We replace about 12 forced air systems to every boiler.

    But we always explain the comfort advantages of hydronic heating to every customer because we want them to make an informed decision. Most agree they would like to be more comfortable, but decide they will live with the forced air because they want to spend their money on something else.

    Occasionally we get the customer who says, "Tell me more, I'm tired of being cold." You then need to be able to explain why they will be more comfortable.

    Understanding why hydronic heating is more comfortable can be easily learned. I learned how to explain it at one of Dan's seminars about 10 years ago. Before that I knew it was more comfortable but I couldn't explain why.

    Don't be a stranger. Stay and learn.

    R. Dale Wegman (Radiant Dale Wegman)
  • Jackchips
    Jackchips Member Posts: 344
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    I live

    in a slab on grade house built in 1968 with a radiant system done by my late Father-in-law. He ran the system at boiler temperature (200 degrees) until my wife and I bought the house. I started mixing the water to lower the supply temp and everything was fine for a few years. Gradually, because of the high temperatures the old steel pipes started to go but I was able to disconnect S & R lines in the garage. This allowed the system to operate for a couple more years with the kitchen/dining areas completely cut off. Nothing like sitting on that rug and playing with my daughters.
    Eventually the old GE boiler let go (just no one to service) and the only option, in the middle of the winter, was a forced warm air system fed from the attic. Terrible heat from the start. Sure, great rating on the furnace and guick start up but plenty of drafts. A few years ago we remodeled and instead of doing the right thing and going with hot water I had a friend do a complete redesign of the warm air system. End of problems-Noooooo. Furnace is the most modern, system designed for pressure loss and dampers for control. Guess what you can not get rid of the cold pockets. My living room chair is right by the return and it is like sitting next to an open window.
    You can have all the anecdotal stories you want about which system is best but there is nothing like those of us who live with it all winter long. Radiant rules but it may not be in everyone's budget so those folks should absolutely go for forced hot water in some fashion.
  • Mike Kraft
    Mike Kraft Member Posts: 406
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    A very helpful assesment!

    Great to throw opinionated comments around.The soup needs stirring every once and awhile.I love the flavor!

    cheese

    PS.......I recently finished a job.The clients have lived in 25 homes in their career.Army surgeon.They found me through an architect,requesting radiant.The entire home was a bit more than they cared to spend to do entirely radiant.So I brought them to a home that I had installed a Hi-Velocity system.They loved it.So now they have,forced air(constant fan),radiant,HWBB,a fan vector in the bathroom and an indirect for DHW.Versitle?I think so!And only one boiler:)
  • Jamie Pompetti
    Jamie Pompetti Member Posts: 82
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    Great post hb, I agree unequivocally.

    And here I though it was going to be a post about the rules of installing forced air systems!
  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Is that really your last name...

    no wonder you like warm air. Just kidding welcome to the Wall.

    After over 40 years of seeing the butcher jobs some installers and home builders have done with Forced Warm Air it is no wonder it gets such a bad rap.

    Having said that I have found Forced Hot Water over the years to be more user friendly simply because we often over sized and over radiated just about every system here in the New England area anyway.

    So you can see that a lot of it has to do with the installation.

    No arguement that hot water from a physics point of view is probably a better way to heat.

    I have however seen some real well installed Forced Warm Air systems, returns in every room., adequate return air, zoned, good sheet metal work, tight ducts well sealed. With the blower speed set to run as low as possible with a set up for Constant Air Circulation, electronic air filters, good humidification. Some of them where two staged or used two furnaces and staged the furnaces. They used temperature on temperature off fan control. The furnace worked within the temperature rise it was designed for all the time. The blower never ran when the duct temperature dropped below 100 degrees (F).

    When I bought my house it had warm air, still warm air, over 50 years old with the same heat exchanger and original blower motor. I have done a lot to it since I moved in back in 1970. What I inherited back then was a poorly designed poorly installed system. That I believe often times is the problem.

    The air conditioning needs to be central air seperated from the heating systems as far as the coil to prevent damage to the heat exchanger and also to give better control over static pressure.

    System for system take away radiant which is really the best way to go and I think done correctly they are both good systems.

    Radiant will rules as long as all this tubing doesn't break down in a few years like the old copper systems did.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    So many efficiencies, so little time

    we have heating equipment efficiency, chemicial energy to heat, next distribution efficiency insulated pipes, heat transfer plates, etc.

    But by far the biggest efficiency to watch is the building envelope. Money is always best spent on above average construction. Windows, insulation types and workmanship, sealing all cracks and house wraps, stuff like that. This is what drives fuel costs, for the most part, and will continue to do so for the life of the building! A couple percentages on furnace or boiler efficiency does little if the building leaks like a sieve.

    It is crucial, however, with ultra tight homes that you address IAQ. This is where we ally with the air side experts! the preimer system looks to be a combination of radiant and air movement, from my view point.

    Check it after it's built with a blower door to see if you get a pass or fail score :)

    hot rod

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  • chris smith_2
    chris smith_2 Member Posts: 37
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    warm air

    tim go here http://www.mzboiler.com/products/fcx/index.html
    nuff said

    chris smith

    paradise porter maine
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,885
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    Tim, I grew up with scorched-air

    and will never live with scorched-air again.

    Mind you, I had optimized that old furnasty as well as I could- humidifier, low-speed constant circulation, more-sensitive thermostat- and it worked about as well as one could expect from scorched-air. But it was never as comfortable as my grandmother's house, which has a hot-water system with big iron radiators.

    I say "has" because I have that house now. The scorched-air demon will only invade this house over my dead body.

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  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    Steamhead the Son's new home is

    going to be all Forced Hot Water. A mix of radiant, hydro air and some baseboard. Two boilers we have not decided on which ones as yet. Maybe I will move in with him some day. I will choose the section that is all radiant.
  • Chauncey
    Chauncey Member Posts: 43
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    Hot Air's Evil Twin--The D/Exp coil--in a word

    MOLD.

    To look at all these posts, I believe our friend Tim P. was just running a flag up the pole to see who would salute.
  • Mark J Strawcutter
    Mark J Strawcutter Member Posts: 625
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    over on usenet

    it's referred to as "trolling"

    I doubt that we'll hear anything more from Tim P

    Mark
  • Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating
    Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating Member Posts: 1,361
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    cough cough cough

    what about all the dust with forced hot air? i'm told it's 80% dust mite feces. and what about having 2 or 3 furnaces that last only 8-10 years now? i grew up in forced hot air and i'll never go back. bob
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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,885
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    Now That's what I call

    savvy retirement planning!

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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,885
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    Too Bad

    I'd like to see his reaction to a radiant-heated home- I'm willing to bet he's never been in one.

    How about it, Tim? Tell us where you are, and we'll point you to the nearest radiant installation.

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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,885
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    That's one thing

    that's great about steam. If something's wrong, it always tells you! BE THE STEAM and you can always find the cause.

    I LOVE it when the HO tells me the house is "eerily quiet" after I've fixed the banging.

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  • Jackchips
    Jackchips Member Posts: 344
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    Is it really necessary

    to go down his road. Warm air is not the best but it is still an alternative heating system that works.

    Our original furnace was 20 years old with only one thermocouple change. We replaced it because of adding A/C and to get the variable speed blower. Would we rather have water-you bet but it was not an option-read my previous post. There are enough pluses in water without adding "feces" to the conversation. Also, our home does not have a lot of dust because of proper filtering.
  • Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating
    Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating Member Posts: 1,361
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    the older furnaces

    seemed to last a lot longer than the new ones, and many now are guaranteed for only 5 years. i'm sorry if i offended you by bringing feces into the conversation but shouldn't we be concerned if that is the majority of dust. bob
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  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
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    I read in a trade rag

    Recently that the industry average life of a gas forced air furnace is now 7.4 years. Of course the Goodman's and Janitrols drag that average down some but still...... I think you'd have a difficult time destroying a cast iron boiler in that length of time even if the install was a real butcher job.

    Advantage: hydronic heat

    Just food for thought
  • nick
    nick Member Posts: 5
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    I have hot air in one half my house and rads in the other

    and here are the comfort advantages I have noted:
    hot air:
    pleated filter actually reduces dust as compared to area heated with rads;
    here in very moist NE, there are many spring and fall days/nights that are slightly cool but quite damp, hot air gives a touch of heat and dehumidifies nicely without overheating;
    I have a return high on wall of cathedral ceiling that brings hot air back down and eliminates stratification;
    I find the hot air seeks out cold spots, and that there are fewer cold spots than in the section with rads

    having said the above, it is certainly true that having a breeze blowing in the house in winter can be annoying
  • PJO
    PJO Member Posts: 140
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    Another Thought...

    Tim,

    Welcome to the Wall...hope you return to re-join the discussion. I have another item to toss on the table in this arguement.

    If you have forced hot air and the same ductwork is used for A/C, how do you setup the feeds and returns? Assuming you would feed low because the heat is "boss", do you return low as well? If this is true, how about the summertime, when you need to return high? IMHO, it's okay to feed low for A/C...the occupants are in the bottom half of the room anyway...but do you return the (mostly) cool air? If you have returns in every room as you should (except baths), do you have high and low returns (with dampers) for all season efficiency?

    Just trying to add to the "total efficiency" discussion. In case you are wondering, I have radiant and HWBB with separate air (high returns!). I also heat my garage slab. In the near future I will add supplemental comfort with towel warmers and radiant upstairs...do all that with a forced air system! All from one unit, which also heats my domestic water.

    I was vacationing in Florida lasdt week, and it was cool overnight...the forced air system was horrible! Dry, dusty, runny noses, scratchy throat, drafty...but it also could have been installed better - one single return up high.

    I too agree that radiant is best and is also a tougher sell due to higher up front cost, but the total money spent on the system includes the utility costs - which heavily outweighs the installation cost over the life of the system. I agree with HR and others about IAQ...I will deal with this issue next year in my home. Ninety five percent of the new homes here are forced air...but not mine.

    Hydronics is the ruler! Radiant is the king of rulers!

    Take Care, PJO
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