Packaged Hydronic Systems

Bill Wright_2

off line, & I'll try to get some info into your hands.

Thanks,

Bill Wright

Bill Wright_2

Packaged Hydronic Systems

Many of you have asked, “Why doesn’t Weil-McLain post on the Wall?” So, in response, I’ve decided to take a more active/visible role.

For my first venture into this, I have a question for installers – what level of system packaging would you like to see from the manufacturers?

Several manufacturers have added packaged components to their offerings (Danfoss, Watts/Heatway, IPEX/Kitec …) and I get requests that range from “a palletized pre-piped, pre-wired Boiler room” to “a simple 3-way thermostatic mixing valve, pump combination” (and everything in between). Weil-McLain’s packaged “Injection Pump Panel” sells well – but is that the extent of packaging the market desires? Obviously, as components increase, flexibility goes down & cost goes up (but ease of installation & ease of troubleshooting go up) – so what are your thoughts as to “the perfect balance”?

What do you wish manufacturers would make in the way of packaged systems? Or, do you think packaging systems is not good for the industry in that it will promote system installations by unknowledgeable people? What are your thoughts?

This has been an on-going discussion that has popped up in places like the RPA newsletter – but I have not seen much input on the Wall.

Thanks,

Bill Wright
Manager, Radiant & Plumbing Systems
Weil-McLain

DanHolohan

Good to see you here, my friend

Welcome.

I think the stuff that Robert Bean has been showing us represents the next step in hydronics. For some Wallies, it's the present. Great quality and well thought out packages.

Bill Wright_2

Thanks Dan

I've got a tremendous amount of respect for Robert Bean (both professionally & personally) -- I'm just curious how far the installers want to take packaging.

Unknown

Hi Bill

good to see you on the Wall you will definitely be an asset. Tell us a little about the Weil McLain Ultra??? I took at look at Weil Mclains web site looks like an interesting addition to all of the modulating packages we are seeing today.

Bill Wright_2

Well, when you strip away all the marketing/sales spin, it comes down to this: It is a condensing, modulating cast aluminum boiler.

WM is importing the heat exchanger from a company that has over 15 years of cast aluminum heat exchanger experience (this exact heat exchanger design has been used in the European market for over 10 years without any problems).

It is light weight -- in most cases UPS shipable.

It is fully modulating (which is really cool, I've been watching one hooked up to a Radiant Slab pole barn/garage ... the boiler rarely shuts down, but modulates the firing rate to perfectly match the system demand).

It is fully condensing -- it actually performs better as return temps drop. Set the boiler outlet temp for the desired radiant temp & let it run (no mixing device or boiler protection is required). It will interface directly with an outdoor sensor to provide temperature reset. It will also interface with an IDWH to allow temperature boost to meet the IDWH load.

It is sealed combustion -- and can be vented with PVC or ABS.

It is designed so that it can be wall hung (comes w/ the bracket as part of the shipping crate). Supply/Return can be piped either out the top or bottom.

It has built in "freeze protection" logic -- firing the boiler if water temp drops below 37 deg F.

Anyway, the Marketing bulletin went out 15 Nov ... so your distributors should have info shortly.

What would YOU like to see in the way of packaged systems? How far down that road should manufacturers go, in your opinion?

Steve Ebels

I'm sort of ambivalent in kind of a way.

> Well, when you strip away all the marketing/sales

> spin, it comes down to this: It is a condensing,

> modulating cast aluminum boiler.

>

> WM is

> importing the heat exchanger from a company that

> has over 15 years of cast aluminum heat exchanger

> experience (this exact heat exchanger design has

> been used in the European market for over 10

> years without any problems).

>

> It is light

> weight -- in most cases UPS shipable.

>

> It is

> fully modulating (which is really cool, I've been

> watching one hooked up to a Radiant Slab pole

> barn/garage ... the boiler rarely shuts down, but

> modulates the firing rate to perfectly match the

> system demand).

>

> It is fully condensing -- it

> actually performs better as return temps drop.

> Set the boiler outlet temp for the desired

> radiant temp & let it run (no mixing device or

> boiler protection is required). It will

> interface directly with an outdoor sensor to

> provide temperature reset. It will also

> interface with an IDWH to allow temperature boost

> to meet the IDWH load.

>

> It is sealed combustion

> -- and can be vented with PVC or ABS.

>

> It is

> designed so that it can be wall hung (comes w/

> the bracket as part of the shipping crate).

> Supply/Return can be piped either out the top or

> bottom.

>

> It has built in "freeze protection"

> logic -- firing the boiler if water temp drops

> below 37 deg F.

>

> Anyway, the Marketing bulletin

> went out 15 Nov ... so your distributors should

> have info shortly.

>

> What would YOU like to see

> in the way of packaged systems? How far down

> that road should manufacturers go, in your

> opinion?

Steve Ebels

If you can find

A package that meets your systems' requirements exactly I think they are a good thing. My point here is that I don't believe I've ever done 2 hydronic systems exactly the same.

A package definitely allows a person to have an engineered, well planned out system without having to do the mental work themselves. The use of a good pump/control package would probably eliminate a lot of "field induced" problems. I guess what I'm trying to say is there are a good number of hydronic system installers who should be using such a thing, judging from the messed up systems I see. (heard about a doozy today. I gotta go see it and take pics if it's true) brand new 16,000 sq ft structure, all radiant in slab with a 1.5 million btu boiler firing into a 3,000 gallon buffer tank. Yikes!!

For the people that are capable of designing their own work, I think most will continue to do that unless the cost of the packaged pieces and parts come down to where it's less cost to buy than build. It's six of one, half dozen of another costwise. Do I pay someone for a prefabed package, or do I pay myself or one of my guys to do it. As far as what the packages offer in performance and capability, for myself I don't see any huge advantage over what we can design and build. I don't mean to sound snooty or arrogant here at all. It's just that hydronic systems aren't magic. You just have to know your stuff and apply the right thing to the job.

JMHO

Happy Thanksgiving to you Bill and thanks for visiting. Don't be a stranger.

sootmonkey

Weil Mclain Gold

Hey Bill, The heating co. that I have recently started to work for has installed a lot of Weil Mclain Gold series boilers. I like them. They have low stack temps. The question I have is this. Does your co. have a brush that you could recomend for the use of cleaning this boiler? My problem is that the brushes that I am issued don't fit well between the pins of the boiler. Thank you, Keith

tom mahon

System Solutions/Modular Packages/Field Design

As much as I love these design built systems that are developed at the job site..it's hard to justify the labor cost to the end user. These pipe and wire wizards deserve every penny, but I also want a modular system option for the middle class grunt like myself. Bean whats in the bag ?
I want the value Eng. version for the warm air weenie.. tom

Boilerpro

Great to see another manufacturers represented....

And welcome! I'm in the midst right now of figuring out how to clean up a botched propane HE installation using 3 boilers. Already been on the phone with Mike Door out of Chicago suburbs about poor flame carryover. Many other problems to address too.

Boilerpro

hr

The challange is

suppling all the options. Some contractors prefer one brand of pump, control, or mixing device. The next guy will want completely different components.

Seems the lead time and inventory you would have to carry to make it happen would be tricky at best. I envision a lot of different colors of inventory

I'd suggest you partner with the Bean Team or someone that has already started walking that path. Danfoss is getting this pretty fine tuned.

How do your injection mix panel sell? Were they enough of a "hit" to make you want to consider more options?

hot rod

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leo g_25

hey bill

let me add my appreciation to WM for climbing onto the wall. if there is any chance of you sending out a package direct to me about this new boiler, i'd appreciate it very much!!! let me know if possible, then i'll e-mail you my addy.

thanx!

leo g

eleft(retired)

your light can be seen

Bill,

Your debut has shown great interest from us wallies, I thank you for the appearance.

I know you will find the time you spend on the Wall rewarding and your company will also.


al

RB_2

The feeling is mutual

For you guys that don't know Bill...he's first rate and a great assest to the industry and country...wish I could spend a day on board that weapon you play in...

rb

Bill Wright_2

You're absolutely right -- the challenge is building enough modules to allow flexiblity to match the specific application, while @ the same time keeping the modules to a minumum for inventory control in the distribution chain.

R. Bean has done a great job in guiding Danfoss down that path -- logical, well thought out modules manufactured at a high level of quality. Then you have some companies, who (I think) custom build thier panels (stilll at a high level of quality) -- but at a higher price & time lag.

Our Injection Pump Panels have sold extremely well -- and yes I do have several "irons in the fire" as far as future packaged items ... but it is a case of "If you build it, will they come?"

I'm curious to hear some dissenting views from the industry (come on guys -- this is THE WALL!) Will packaging promote standardization (similar to the forced air market) that will favor the low bidder? Will it entice non-heating professionals to dabble in tinker-toying together systems? OR -- will standardization increase the building community's confidence in us & our systems? Will it make the costs more understandable & acceptable? etc.

I don't really have an agenda (but I do have an opinion) ...
I just want to hear the thoughts of others.

Bill W.

Mark Eatherton1

Interestingly enough...

that topic came up at one of the round table discussions at The Gathering. A wholesaler from the left coast told me he was concerned with the chain of command prostuting itself to the building industry, who would then hire someone who knew how to solder to install the package.

I assured him that Danfoss had open ears to anyone in their chain of distribution, but he said he'd already complained and that the prostitute was well known as a prostitue and was allowed to deal in their product any how.

I can see his point. Builders are ALWAYS looking for a better way to line their pockets with cash, even at the expense of other trades. Does this make it right?

No, it just makes our job as a contractor a little tougher in getting the word out to the right people that we are worth our prices.

Some contractor may get lucky, but the majority of them will get burned bad enough that they realize that there's more to doing hydronics than grabbing a few components and someone who can solder and making it happen.

As usual, feel free to challenge this or any other views. The more we as an industry know, the better off we are.

ME

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heatboy

I walk a fine line..............

when it comes to pre-made anything. I love the concept of the ZCPs and have utilized them and will certainly look for more reasons to use them wherever they fit. On the other hand, I take pride in creating custom panels for my projects. I'd like to think very few contractors in my area can duplicate what I create. Also, I can pick and choose the equipment I want on this or that particular control panel. Does all of this add value in my clients eye? Yes and no, I beleive. I am sure that any of us here can take a pre-manufactured board and individualize it so there is no mistake we put the project together and not some faceless individual behind the pretty enclosure.

I do have concerns about the other issues associated with pre-made boards and as long as they don't show up in some aberration on the shelves of a retail stores, there is little worry about them ending up in the hands of people who don't know which end of the torch to hold. I understand that WM has recently backed out of the HD agreement, but that is a troublesome trend that will undoubtedly not go away anytime soon. It's a short step from that to this issue.

Warm Regards,

hb

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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Steamhead

Welcome to the Wall, Bill

I'm sure I'll have something to ask you, but can't think of anything at the moment....

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RB_2

Stealing second base...

Bill forgive me for interupting your post...

The Wall represents a select few superb tradesman ... we know many of you and have been to your jobs...a real treat for me personally...I miss the tools...and I'll never get to all (someone told me there were) 60,000 plus HVAC contractors in the U.S.,...ever hear the saying...98% of lawyers give the other 2% a bad name.

So...some rambling thoughts...

First and foremost...those who have used prefabricated products still do everything they did before except the electro/mechanical assembly.

You still have to do the load calculations, you still have to convert loads to gpms...you still have to do friction loss calculations...and line velocities and ...and...and....

Above all else the filling, purging, and setting up of the setpoint and reset controls, balancing and pressure regulation still need skilled technicians just as was required in the past...and if you were not good at these things in the past...prefabricated controls won't make you any better...they do not erase the need for skilled control technicians...they just make you more efficient at what you already do...which is why the majority of installs are done by skilled trademen...not the 'hack with the crack' (thats for your library Jeff R ;@)

Fitting pipes is not control contracting...never is...never was...control contractors are not pipe fitters...ask a home owner who they would rather have responsible for their comfort system...just a thought.

I learned a long time ago there are no right or wrong answers - only results.

If results differed from expectations, I changed what I was doing until the results met my expectations...if too much change was confusing I stopped.

This philosophy served me well in the trades, in engineering and in business.

So here are some random expectations:

Should we expect that after several generations, hydronics would have more than 4% to 6% market share?

Should we expect North American consumer satisfaction of HVAC systems would be close to the 80% ASHRAE target instead of the 55% reported by Decision Analysts?

Should we expect industry to know proposed changes to the standard look for a higher 85% satisfaction rate?

Should we expect those in the comfort industry would even know a target range exists?

Should we expect that given the 25% spread, industry would be developing a means to narrow the gap?

Should we expect that over time, consumer perceptions of hydronics would change for the better as more systems are installed?

Should we expect that as more systems are installed they would get simpler and faster?

Should we expect customers who want comfort pay for the "technical" which should never be fast or simple?

Should we expect those who don't pay for the technical get the uncomfortable and should we expect them to contribute in a positive light on our industry?

Should we expect that given the demand for skilled labor we'd see a rise in the take home pay for skilled labor?

Should we expect that given the global shortage in skilled labor we'd see a rise in enrollment in the trade schools?

Should we expect that given all the documented benefits of hydronics, consumers would be beating down the door?

Should we expect the savings from a high efficiency system compensate for the inefficiency of taking raw materials and turning them into fossil fuel frenzy stuff.


And just two more...

Should we expect tradesmen who own businesses to become businessmen? ( Good question )

Should we expect businessmen who own a trades business to become tradesmen? (Great question )

...the questions go on and on...but the short stroke --- is *** THE RESULT ***...we are exactly where we are...because of what we do collectively...and collectively we haven't changed...which is why we are the crack of all butt jokes and will continue to have what we have for market share...so if you're tired of getting brushed with the tar and feathers..."When faced with a mad man...don't try to change him...change yourself."

Remember if your great system stands out amongst nine dogs...the marketplace tells all their friends that you have a one in ten chance of having a great system...pay your cash and take your chances...but if only one out of ten is a dog the odds increase exponentially the consumer will buy your stuff...especially if you have great stories to tell!

Now stay with me on this final thought...

A gradual shrinkage in skilled tradesmen + gradual deterioration of an overabundance of different systems + gradual aging of baby boomers who own the special system = generation of old folks who will face great difficulties finding firms to maintain their "custom" system eventually forcing them out of their own homes at a time in their life when they want to stay!


...and last but not least - who in the used home market - will want to buy these houses with their custom "one off" systems?

Imagine...what the contractor of the future will have to put up with...The verbal abuse...the ridicule...the embarrassment...think it's tough today being an industry representative...the future tradesman is going to be some tough insensitive SOB to deal with all the customer issues we're creating for him today. Nice legacy eh?

Heaven knows there have been many projects in my life which I have designed and installed because they were good for the ego and bank book...but I can only hope the same heaven helps those folks who own it, then try to maintain it, then eventually try to sell it...

They say the best way to win any debate is to know the other sides story better than themselves...I've been a consumer, a tradesmen, a designer and a businessman...and I've concluded...

OUR INDUSTRY IS GETTING VERY GOOD AT GIVING BIRTH TO CUSTOM STUFF...BUT WE NEED TO START ASKING THE FIRST, SECOND and THIRD GENERATION OF CUSTOMERs IF THEY WANT TO BE THE PARENTS!

So often I hear from consumers commenting on our industry..." your worst enemy is **your** industry"...so perhaps instead of trying to change the results...we should lower our expectations?

...nah...that would be too easy.

Rambling again...possibly way off base (again) on my observations (short and far sighted)...for which I'll be grateful(and indebted) to those who can, should and will show me the errors of my ways...

rb

Mark Eatherton1

This man is a prophet...

thanks for making the mind juices flow Robert. A wonderful read as usual. Keep up the great work.

ME

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leo g_25

robert

though we "create" custom systems, all of our systems are made with off the shelf hardware. we use no secret spells or "in-house trade secrets". yes, the system may be fancified with a blue box that has a chip in it, but still, water is heated, circulated, valves open and close, water is again heated, etc.

when i go to service a job that i installed back in the begining of my journey, i am embarrased! the house is usually no more comfortable then a forced air system. when i service a home that has an "educated" installation, i really can feel the difference.

simplicity may keep you warm (or hot), but is this what i am aiming for? i think not.

leo g

Art

Ultra price & availability

Bill,
Do you know what kind of price range the ultra will be in? When will they be available to purchase? Has there been any problems with the protoytpes?
Thanks for your time.
Art

ScottMP

Thanksgiving morning

My mother-in-law, came down stairs and said " For a big house, I must say its very warm, Our house is allways chilly".

My house has cast iron radiators with a four way mixing valve coupled to outdoor reset. I keep the house at 67 degrees.

When my father-in-law came down came down I asked him what he keeps his hot air furnace set at ? As he is quite "frugal", I expected 64/65.

"Oh I keep it at 70 ".

I think we're on the right track.

Comfort is the sell.

Scott

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hr

To box or panel?

If only I could read the homeowners mind before I start the mechanical room assembly. I have plenty of customers that, in retrospect, would have been more at ease to see a line of beautiful white ZCP boxes on the wall.

Upon first gaze at a 4X8' panel I spent weeks building and polishing, some homeowners get that comedy/ horror look.

On one hand I think they appreciate the time and energy I spent building and wiring the wall. On the other hand I know some are frightened! they wonder who will be able to understand repair that years from now. Maybe it's just the AARP stickers I place on them

Those are the "beautiful box" customers, no doubt.

Hard to know going into a job which hydronic presentation will put a smile on their face. Often times I don't even meet the homeowners until move in day!

Maybe at the bid process I should present pictures of both the "wall o wonder" approch vs the "hydronics in a box" method and see which they prefer. Involve the GC and homeowner.

I have a pretty good feeling most would prefer the "beautiful box" for the same reason most consumers drive around with a hood over their engine compartment. They really don't want, or care, to see the "machine" just the results.

Guess I'll continue to keep a foot in both arenas, for now.

I'm not convinced a large percentage of homeowners would go "contractorless" if by some reason the "boxes" showed up in the "box stores" That percentage of the market already has plenty of places, online, to get this type of system currently. Of course rarely does a week go by here, on the wall, that we don't hear from these unsatsified customers

hot rod

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Mark J Strawcutter

how will it be any different

than trying to find someone now to fix 2-3 generation old systems that were commodity when installed? At some point in the life of a system, the distinction between custom and commodity goes away. You end up with a small number in the trade that have the knowledge, interest and expertise to understand and repair older systems while the majority will want to pull it all out and replace.

Mark

Mark J Strawcutter

same situation with structured wiring

systems. Lots of companies making main distribution boxes that fit in a stud space. Proprietary components, brackets, power supplies, patch panels, etc. But a nice white cover to look at in the equipment room.

When folks ask me whose distribution panel I used I say "georga pacific". It's a 4x4 plywood panel. Patch panels are standard telco 66 footprint. When I decided to upgrade my network from 10Mb to 100Mb I didn't have to wait for Leviton to come up with a 100Mb switch to fit in their box and live with whatever good/bad technical specs it had. I went out and bought a good quality switch and hung it on the board - only "problem" was finding a space to mount it.

Mark

DanHolohan

As with

steam heating.

Paul Rohrs

future compatabililty

Plug-n-play is a great concept, and from Dans descriptions in Europe, it works well. So DIN plug, Molex connect, terminal strip of Tekmar, Heattimer, perhaps the new product from Bob Tonners lab. Great, dandy, how can we integrate each control speaking different languages. How many of you operate Macintosh and PC's in your office? The old Wirsbo Promix 101 control can't even replace the new Promix 101 controller, one was floating action, the other is not. I think integrating to one box mentality will equate to the problems with have with the "big-box" mentality. I am looking forward to the future in this industry but we must come together and take a step back before we move forward.
Didn't Western Europe just move forward by introducing the new uniform standard of currency in the "Euro"? Is there a lesson there?

PR

Dan Peel

Provocation

Robert, your questions and suggestions are thought provoking. The group here on the wall who design, install, and service hydronic systems are still pioneers. In many conversations at the gathering last week this theme was recurrent. As much as those of us who work in this field may wish to keep systems individual, each system runs the very real risk of being the next orphan of the heating industry. The variety we all see or read about here daily is both staggering and humbling. So long as the comfort system can deliver both comfort and efficiency for the life of the designed space then no harm is done. Properly documented and simplified control strategies - whether packaged or not should be the long term survivors. Enjoy......Dan

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eleft(retired)

Simple

What we need is to not think protectionism.

The systems I see posted on the Wall seem to make the hydronic radiant temperature control look complicated. The piping uses up a large portion of footage that is not inexpensive in today's market. This limits further living space expansion for the future in that area. The public, and building trade gets scared off by the assumption of the high cost and concedes to hot air.

I coached a friend of mine on a radiant install , he followed me through one. He tried to quote on a job he was asked to bid radiant. The supplier of the brand he chose made it so complicated he and the builder went with hot air even though the buyer requested radiant.

At my 45th class reunion, I checked with several plumbing and heating people if any had done any radiant work, the answer basically was" I won't touch that stuff, I heard to many problems with copper in the floor".

My point is the IPP150 is an easy way to start with or to add on to any system. It takes up little space and Is user friendly. I think you can get a cabinet if you so choose.

al

Bill Clinton

packaged systems

I question whether they will be needed at all as the industry matures. More a question of modular components that work.

Much of the overcomplexity of todays hydronics comes from using ill-suited components. The lengths we go to because our boilers can't handle low temperatures and low flows are staggering. Drove me to water heaters.

If you start out with something like a Buderus cast iron boiler (which I have come to like--heaven preserve me from Viessman) you can eliminate much of the BS. Equiped with their control package (the cheap one is fine in most cases), you can hook the boiler directly to a multi-zone radiant system without four-way valves, injection mixing, or any of that stuff. All you need to provide is air elimination, expansion tank, circulator and manifold. Pretty basic.

As to the distribution system: I have found that plain old on-off control works just fine. At most, you may need to provide two temperatures of water to satisfy all areas.

Here's a concept I'm playing with: One Room; One Tube; One Zone. That is to say, best comfort is afforded when each room has its own control. To avoid making the area around a manifold look like a snake-pit, and to provide rough flow balance, vary tube diameter: 3/8" for small rooms; 1/2" for medium size, and 5/8 or even 3/4" for basketball courts. Use an extruded brass manifold with a telestat on each branch conrolled by a wall thermostat.

There you have it: buy a boiler that can do the job you need done; pump water out of it to a manifold; telestats and thermostats control flow. The technology is there, but it's built into the components, not bolted onto a piece of plywood.

Bill

Bill Wright_2

Ultra

Should be shipping w/in next 2 weeks. Check with your distributor for availability/pricing.

No problems with any of our test locations or long-term lab testing. This exact heat exchanger has been successful in the European market for over 10 years ... w/o any problems.

Bill Wright

Bill Wright_2

Oil Boiler Brushes

WM p/n 591-706-214.

Drop me your snail mail address off line & I'll see what I can do to get one in your hands.

Bill Wright
Manager, Radiant & Plumbing Systems
Weil-McLain