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Constant air in the pipes... how to resolve problem?
Roger Cruz
Member Posts: 5
I posted this question in the HVAC-Talk site. A few people recommended that I ask here. Below is my original post and my reply (with more info added). It is long but please do me the favor to read it and provide me with your expertise. I'm running out of options with my new system install.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?postid=196746
Thanks in advance.
Roger
Last summer I had a new Boderus + Reillo system installed (thanks to all of those who helped me with this selection). Now that winter is here, the system has been turned on and lots of issues have come up.
The present problem is that the 2nd floor is not getting heat. I have investigated the problem and I can feel that the return pipe (forced hot water system) for that floor is always cold when the other return pipes in the zone are hot. I told this to the installer and he said this was air in the pipes. He flushed them once and heat returned to the upstairs floor. A couple of hours later, the return pipe was cold again and no heat was reaching upstairs.
The installer came for a 2nd time and flush that return pipe again (while the other returns of branches in the zone were OFF). Heat returned once again. Now 4 days later, I have the same problem again. The installer told me that if this problem reoccurred, that I was to flush the pipes myself. I paid him a large chunk of change for this installation and I expected a flawless system. Now I'm here in the middle of the night having to flush the system.
My problem is that because the rest of the heating pipes in the house were not installed by him (he just changed the furnace, circulators, hot water storage tank, etc), I can't force him to come back and find the problem. He has asked me to search for a leak some where else in the system.
How can I possibly find where air is getting into the system? Logically, since the upstairs heating was fine before the new installation, I think that it is a problem with his work. I have looked around and see no water or corrosion on the pipes that are visible, but of course, many of the pipes are under the floor or behind walls. Can some liquid with smell be injected into the system to help track the leak? What else can my installer do to solve this problem?
At this point, winter is fast approaching and I just want to resolve the problem so ANY help is extremely appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Roger Cruz
PS. Just in case this help. Here is a summary of the other problems with the system:
1) A circulator burned out for no apparent reason. It was replaced.
2) The gauge readings do not match the aquastat high limit settings.
3) The burner short-cycles too much. I had him replace the aquastat but the problem still there.
4) With a boderus 55 gallon hot water storage tank, I consistently run out of hot water after 20 minutes. He had told me that with this size tank, I should have no problems with the hot water.
-----------------------
My response to several helping souls:
I'll start by saying thanks to all who have replied so far. I will also address all of your questions in this message. This is going to be long but please stick to it. I need all the help I can get.
1) Toolpusher:
I will investigate this site (http://heatinghelp.com/ ) as soon as I'm done with this reply.
2) Simpleman:
a) I'm thinking as well that it may be an install problem. They had indicated to me that they would have no problem with the Boderus+Riello installation when I got the quote but after further talking to them, I now know that they've only done 2 thus far.
b) Did he pump away from the point of no pressure change?
I'm not sure what you are asking here. See my description of the location of the circulators below if thats what you mean.
c) What type of dritribustion system do you have?
There are 2 zones controlled by a Taco SR 503 3-zone relay: one zone is for the baseboard heat and another for the hot water storage tank (a boderus 55-g tank). The circulators are Taco 007-F5.
d) Are the circulator size properly for indirect
tank?
The HW storage tank is only about 5 feet away from the boiler with at most 10ft of 1" piping between them. It pushes the hot water into the tank RATHER than pulling it thru the return pipe. The installer said that these tanks are meant to have water pushed into them. This circulator seems adequate enough in my inexperienced opinion.
e) Are your circulator for the heat size properly?
The house heat piping is as follows. One 1"+ pipe runs about 10ft from the boiler and it splits into 5 branches. Four of those branches remain in the first floor, while the 5th, the problematic one, goes up to the second floor. 4 branches have 1/2" return pipe and a newer branch has a 1". The 5 return branches "T" into one pipe to which a Taco circulator is attached. This pump "pulls" the water out of the system (ie, is connected to the return pipes).
The circulator that burned out recently was the one feeding the baseboards. I too asked myself if he had undersized this pump and perhaps that's why it burned out. So I expressed my concerned to the installer he said that it was more than enough since I only have about 2000 sq. ft.
In short, there was no explanation why a brand new pump would burn out. After it was removed, I noticed that the propeller inside was hard to turn with your hand. After some force, I finally managed to make it turn smoothly. The stuck propeller had caused the motor windings to overheat and burn. Another Taco 007 took its place.
f) Did he size the expansion tank for the volume of water that in the system?
Honestly, I do not remember the previous expansion tank. Currently, he has installed a 4.4G Amtrol Extrol Model 30.
3) jrc2905:
a) Do you have an air vent on the top of the boiler?
Yes. I have some pictures but no website to upload them to to link from here. If anyone knows where I can upload them to, let me know.
4) markwolf:
a) that is by no means your installer's fault he replaced the boiler not the whole system.
I would agree with you only if the problems had been there BEFORE he replaced the system. I never had lack of heat in the second floor. As a matter of fact, I asked him to plan for a future zone to control heat in that floor because it was always hotter than the 1st floor. With the previous system, I never had to bleed the system every few days in order to get the air out. Sure, the system may have developed a leak some where else in the pipes but odds are that it may be in the work he did.
b) he did not show you how to use the air bleeders by all means.
Yes, he did, including the full system flush which is a pain in the butt to be doing every few days.
5) mark r grant:
a) Do you have an air seperator in the system?
Dont now. What does it look like?
b) Do you have antifreeze in the system?
No, just regular well water. The quality of the well water is excellent.
c) Do you have two pumps?
Yes
d) If your running out of hot water you might check the aquastat in the boiler.
This is another issue entirely. 20 minutes seems very short to me. We especifically asked him to design the system so we wouldnt run out of hot water in the middle of a shower. To this date, we still do. My system uses the following aquastat: Honeywell Aquastat Relay L8124A. It has a high and a low limit. The first aquastat was replaced recently to attempt to fix the short cycling and the fact that the temperature gauge was reading different values than set in the aquastat. See the data below from experiments conducted to prove to the installer that something was not right with the aquastat.
2nd Heat Test
Conditions: Heat was turned off at thermostat for about 90mins prior to test. Boiler temp was 150F. Burner was off. HW circ never turned on during test. House temp was 68F. Aquastat settings: differential of 15F, low of 130F and high of 180F
1) 5:00pm: Set thermostat to 74F.
2) 5:00pm: Burner & circulator turn ON right away.
3) 5:01pm: Boiler temp has dropped to 130F.
4) 5:05pm: Boiler temp rises to 140F. Circ still ON.
5) 5:07pm: Boiler temp rises to 150F. Circ still ON.
6) 5:09pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
7) 5:10pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp: 69F
8) 5:18pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
9) 5:19pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp almost 70F.
10) 5:22pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
11) 5:23pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp: 70F
12) 5:30pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
13) 5:31pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3 degrees. Circ still ON.
14) 5:34pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
15) 5:35pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp almost 72F.
16) 5:42pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
17) 5:43pm: 5:31pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp 72F.
18) 5:45pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
19) 5:46pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ still ON.
20) Test stopped.
The second aquastat appears to behave very similar to this AND the high limit is off by 20F (have to set it at 200F in order for the burner to shut off at 180F).
e) Is the boiler shutting down at 140?
Nope. It normally shuts off much higher than that, around 160F or so.
f) I would like to know also what type of radiant do you have?
Im not sure what is called but is the common baseboard heating which uses convection to heat up the house by running hotwater thru pipes connected to metal fins.
g) Do you have infloor and wall mounted or cast iron or? what?
Not sure what you are asking here. The boiler is cast iron.
6) pjs:
a) Did you get other prices on this boiler job
Of course, I had 4 other offers. 2 offers for the boderus and two other offers for different brands.
b) was this the lowest bid?
No. It was actually the highest of all 4 bids. I didnt want to have any problems so I didnt mind paying for a good system. I chose the bid from the person who was already servicing the old system. He had seemed good enough the only other 2 times I had contacted him.
c) did they offer any other add ons ie Spirovent air seperator.
No. Dont know what an air separator is.
d) did they offer a larger h/w tank
He told me that the 53g was an overkill and had offered a smaller version. I decided larger is always better even if wasteful.
e) did they even look at the system [ that is the existing piping ]
Not when he gave me the quote but he was the one servicing the old system with the previous owner for the last 10+ years so he assured me he knew exactly what was in place.
f) did they ask if you have any problem areas ie rooms that don't heat.
I told him the upstairs got too hot even when the only thermostat in the 1st floor was set to 66F. This is why I had him build the ability to add a 2nd zone in the future.
g) You had him change the aquastat did you determine this to be a problem or did he make this determination
I told him about the short cycling. I went to the honeywell site and downloaded the specs. I read them cover to cover. I understood how they function. I conducted several tests (one of which is included above). I had him come over. I demonstrated my observations. He agreed it was not behaving as designed. He changed the part.
h) It seems some of the problems your having you may have caused, directly or indirectly.
I seriously doubt it. I did plenty of equipment research. I got 4 quotes. I trusted the installer who had already maintained the previous system and who is reputable with several of the neighbords. I paid him $6K to install a brand new system so I wouldnt have any more hot water problems. I did the buyer beware portion. He installed it and it doesnt work properly. It is not my fault at all.
7) slimwoodie
a) find where your leak is .....make up water's bringin' the air
Good theory but Ive looked every where I cant find a leak. Is there a way to prevent the make-up water from entering the system to verify that there is indeed a leak? Would the pressure of the system drop as the water level does?
------------------------------- end of replies -----------------------------------
Another issue I forgot to mention is that the burner kept mis-firing after the initial install. The only way to get to stay ON was to decrease the nozzle size from the factory setting. I think this is now fixed and no longer an issue so it is probably in now way related to the current problem.
Thanks again to all of you.
Roger Cruz
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?postid=196746
Thanks in advance.
Roger
Last summer I had a new Boderus + Reillo system installed (thanks to all of those who helped me with this selection). Now that winter is here, the system has been turned on and lots of issues have come up.
The present problem is that the 2nd floor is not getting heat. I have investigated the problem and I can feel that the return pipe (forced hot water system) for that floor is always cold when the other return pipes in the zone are hot. I told this to the installer and he said this was air in the pipes. He flushed them once and heat returned to the upstairs floor. A couple of hours later, the return pipe was cold again and no heat was reaching upstairs.
The installer came for a 2nd time and flush that return pipe again (while the other returns of branches in the zone were OFF). Heat returned once again. Now 4 days later, I have the same problem again. The installer told me that if this problem reoccurred, that I was to flush the pipes myself. I paid him a large chunk of change for this installation and I expected a flawless system. Now I'm here in the middle of the night having to flush the system.
My problem is that because the rest of the heating pipes in the house were not installed by him (he just changed the furnace, circulators, hot water storage tank, etc), I can't force him to come back and find the problem. He has asked me to search for a leak some where else in the system.
How can I possibly find where air is getting into the system? Logically, since the upstairs heating was fine before the new installation, I think that it is a problem with his work. I have looked around and see no water or corrosion on the pipes that are visible, but of course, many of the pipes are under the floor or behind walls. Can some liquid with smell be injected into the system to help track the leak? What else can my installer do to solve this problem?
At this point, winter is fast approaching and I just want to resolve the problem so ANY help is extremely appreciated.
Thank you in advance,
Roger Cruz
PS. Just in case this help. Here is a summary of the other problems with the system:
1) A circulator burned out for no apparent reason. It was replaced.
2) The gauge readings do not match the aquastat high limit settings.
3) The burner short-cycles too much. I had him replace the aquastat but the problem still there.
4) With a boderus 55 gallon hot water storage tank, I consistently run out of hot water after 20 minutes. He had told me that with this size tank, I should have no problems with the hot water.
-----------------------
My response to several helping souls:
I'll start by saying thanks to all who have replied so far. I will also address all of your questions in this message. This is going to be long but please stick to it. I need all the help I can get.
1) Toolpusher:
I will investigate this site (http://heatinghelp.com/ ) as soon as I'm done with this reply.
2) Simpleman:
a) I'm thinking as well that it may be an install problem. They had indicated to me that they would have no problem with the Boderus+Riello installation when I got the quote but after further talking to them, I now know that they've only done 2 thus far.
b) Did he pump away from the point of no pressure change?
I'm not sure what you are asking here. See my description of the location of the circulators below if thats what you mean.
c) What type of dritribustion system do you have?
There are 2 zones controlled by a Taco SR 503 3-zone relay: one zone is for the baseboard heat and another for the hot water storage tank (a boderus 55-g tank). The circulators are Taco 007-F5.
d) Are the circulator size properly for indirect
tank?
The HW storage tank is only about 5 feet away from the boiler with at most 10ft of 1" piping between them. It pushes the hot water into the tank RATHER than pulling it thru the return pipe. The installer said that these tanks are meant to have water pushed into them. This circulator seems adequate enough in my inexperienced opinion.
e) Are your circulator for the heat size properly?
The house heat piping is as follows. One 1"+ pipe runs about 10ft from the boiler and it splits into 5 branches. Four of those branches remain in the first floor, while the 5th, the problematic one, goes up to the second floor. 4 branches have 1/2" return pipe and a newer branch has a 1". The 5 return branches "T" into one pipe to which a Taco circulator is attached. This pump "pulls" the water out of the system (ie, is connected to the return pipes).
The circulator that burned out recently was the one feeding the baseboards. I too asked myself if he had undersized this pump and perhaps that's why it burned out. So I expressed my concerned to the installer he said that it was more than enough since I only have about 2000 sq. ft.
In short, there was no explanation why a brand new pump would burn out. After it was removed, I noticed that the propeller inside was hard to turn with your hand. After some force, I finally managed to make it turn smoothly. The stuck propeller had caused the motor windings to overheat and burn. Another Taco 007 took its place.
f) Did he size the expansion tank for the volume of water that in the system?
Honestly, I do not remember the previous expansion tank. Currently, he has installed a 4.4G Amtrol Extrol Model 30.
3) jrc2905:
a) Do you have an air vent on the top of the boiler?
Yes. I have some pictures but no website to upload them to to link from here. If anyone knows where I can upload them to, let me know.
4) markwolf:
a) that is by no means your installer's fault he replaced the boiler not the whole system.
I would agree with you only if the problems had been there BEFORE he replaced the system. I never had lack of heat in the second floor. As a matter of fact, I asked him to plan for a future zone to control heat in that floor because it was always hotter than the 1st floor. With the previous system, I never had to bleed the system every few days in order to get the air out. Sure, the system may have developed a leak some where else in the pipes but odds are that it may be in the work he did.
b) he did not show you how to use the air bleeders by all means.
Yes, he did, including the full system flush which is a pain in the butt to be doing every few days.
5) mark r grant:
a) Do you have an air seperator in the system?
Dont now. What does it look like?
b) Do you have antifreeze in the system?
No, just regular well water. The quality of the well water is excellent.
c) Do you have two pumps?
Yes
d) If your running out of hot water you might check the aquastat in the boiler.
This is another issue entirely. 20 minutes seems very short to me. We especifically asked him to design the system so we wouldnt run out of hot water in the middle of a shower. To this date, we still do. My system uses the following aquastat: Honeywell Aquastat Relay L8124A. It has a high and a low limit. The first aquastat was replaced recently to attempt to fix the short cycling and the fact that the temperature gauge was reading different values than set in the aquastat. See the data below from experiments conducted to prove to the installer that something was not right with the aquastat.
2nd Heat Test
Conditions: Heat was turned off at thermostat for about 90mins prior to test. Boiler temp was 150F. Burner was off. HW circ never turned on during test. House temp was 68F. Aquastat settings: differential of 15F, low of 130F and high of 180F
1) 5:00pm: Set thermostat to 74F.
2) 5:00pm: Burner & circulator turn ON right away.
3) 5:01pm: Boiler temp has dropped to 130F.
4) 5:05pm: Boiler temp rises to 140F. Circ still ON.
5) 5:07pm: Boiler temp rises to 150F. Circ still ON.
6) 5:09pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
7) 5:10pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp: 69F
8) 5:18pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
9) 5:19pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp almost 70F.
10) 5:22pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
11) 5:23pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp: 70F
12) 5:30pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
13) 5:31pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3 degrees. Circ still ON.
14) 5:34pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
15) 5:35pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp almost 72F.
16) 5:42pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
17) 5:43pm: 5:31pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp 72F.
18) 5:45pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
19) 5:46pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ still ON.
20) Test stopped.
The second aquastat appears to behave very similar to this AND the high limit is off by 20F (have to set it at 200F in order for the burner to shut off at 180F).
e) Is the boiler shutting down at 140?
Nope. It normally shuts off much higher than that, around 160F or so.
f) I would like to know also what type of radiant do you have?
Im not sure what is called but is the common baseboard heating which uses convection to heat up the house by running hotwater thru pipes connected to metal fins.
g) Do you have infloor and wall mounted or cast iron or? what?
Not sure what you are asking here. The boiler is cast iron.
6) pjs:
a) Did you get other prices on this boiler job
Of course, I had 4 other offers. 2 offers for the boderus and two other offers for different brands.
b) was this the lowest bid?
No. It was actually the highest of all 4 bids. I didnt want to have any problems so I didnt mind paying for a good system. I chose the bid from the person who was already servicing the old system. He had seemed good enough the only other 2 times I had contacted him.
c) did they offer any other add ons ie Spirovent air seperator.
No. Dont know what an air separator is.
d) did they offer a larger h/w tank
He told me that the 53g was an overkill and had offered a smaller version. I decided larger is always better even if wasteful.
e) did they even look at the system [ that is the existing piping ]
Not when he gave me the quote but he was the one servicing the old system with the previous owner for the last 10+ years so he assured me he knew exactly what was in place.
f) did they ask if you have any problem areas ie rooms that don't heat.
I told him the upstairs got too hot even when the only thermostat in the 1st floor was set to 66F. This is why I had him build the ability to add a 2nd zone in the future.
g) You had him change the aquastat did you determine this to be a problem or did he make this determination
I told him about the short cycling. I went to the honeywell site and downloaded the specs. I read them cover to cover. I understood how they function. I conducted several tests (one of which is included above). I had him come over. I demonstrated my observations. He agreed it was not behaving as designed. He changed the part.
h) It seems some of the problems your having you may have caused, directly or indirectly.
I seriously doubt it. I did plenty of equipment research. I got 4 quotes. I trusted the installer who had already maintained the previous system and who is reputable with several of the neighbords. I paid him $6K to install a brand new system so I wouldnt have any more hot water problems. I did the buyer beware portion. He installed it and it doesnt work properly. It is not my fault at all.
7) slimwoodie
a) find where your leak is .....make up water's bringin' the air
Good theory but Ive looked every where I cant find a leak. Is there a way to prevent the make-up water from entering the system to verify that there is indeed a leak? Would the pressure of the system drop as the water level does?
------------------------------- end of replies -----------------------------------
Another issue I forgot to mention is that the burner kept mis-firing after the initial install. The only way to get to stay ON was to decrease the nozzle size from the factory setting. I think this is now fixed and no longer an issue so it is probably in now way related to the current problem.
Thanks again to all of you.
Roger Cruz
0
Comments
-
Roger
> I posted this question in the HVAC-Talk site. A
> few people recommended that I ask here. Below is
> my original post and my reply (with more info
> added). It is long but please do me the favor to
> read it and provide me with your expertise. I'm
> running out of options with my new system
> install.
> http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?postid=196
> 746
>
> Thanks in advance. Roger
>
> Last summer I
> had a new Boderus + Reillo system installed
> (thanks to all of those who helped me with this
> selection). Now that winter is here, the system
> has been turned on and lots of issues have come
> up.
>
> The present problem is that the 2nd floor
> is not getting heat. I have investigated the
> problem and I can feel that the return pipe
> (forced hot water system) for that floor is
> always cold when the other return pipes in the
> zone are hot. I told this to the installer and he
> said this was air in the pipes. He flushed them
> once and heat returned to the upstairs floor. A
> couple of hours later, the return pipe was cold
> again and no heat was reaching upstairs.
>
> The
> installer came for a 2nd time and flush that
> return pipe again (while the other returns of
> branches in the zone were OFF). Heat returned
> once again. Now 4 days later, I have the same
> problem again. The installer told me that if this
> problem reoccurred, that I was to flush the pipes
> myself. I paid him a large chunk of change for
> this installation and I expected a flawless
> system. Now I'm here in the middle of the night
> having to flush the system.
>
> My problem is
> that because the rest of the heating pipes in the
> house were not installed by him (he just changed
> the furnace, circulators, hot water storage tank,
> etc), I can't force him to come back and find the
> problem. He has asked me to search for a leak
> some where else in the system.
>
> How can I
> possibly find where air is getting into the
> system? Logically, since the upstairs heating was
> fine before the new installation, I think that it
> is a problem with his work. I have looked around
> and see no water or corrosion on the pipes that
> are visible, but of course, many of the pipes are
> under the floor or behind walls. Can some liquid
> with smell be injected into the system to help
> track the leak? What else can my installer do to
> solve this problem?
>
> At this point, winter is
> fast approaching and I just want to resolve the
> problem so ANY help is extremely appreciated.
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Roger Cruz
>
> PS. Just
> in case this help. Here is a summary of the other
> problems with the system:
>
> 1) A circulator
> burned out for no apparent reason. It was
> replaced.
>
> 2) The gauge readings do not match
> the aquastat high limit settings.
>
> 3) The
> burner short-cycles too much. I had him replace
> the aquastat but the problem still there.
>
> 4)
> With a boderus 55 gallon hot water storage tank,
> I consistently run out of hot water after 20
> minutes. He had told me that with this size tank,
> I should have no problems with the hot water.
> ----------------------- My response to several
> helping souls:
>
> I'll start by saying thanks to
> all who have replied so far. I will also address
> all of your questions in this message. This is
> going to be long but please stick to it. I need
> all the help I can get.
>
> 1) Toolpusher:
>
> I
> will investigate this site
> (http://heatinghelp.com/ ) as soon as I'm done
> with this reply.
>
> 2) Simpleman:
>
> a) I'm
> thinking as well that it may be an install
> problem. They had indicated to me that they would
> have no problem with the Boderus+Riello
> installation when I got the quote but after
> further talking to them, I now know that they've
> only done 2 thus far.
>
> b) Did he pump away
> from the point of no pressure change?
>
> I'm not
> sure what you are asking here. See my description
> of the location of the circulators below if
> thats what you mean.
>
> c) What type of
> dritribustion system do you have?
>
> There are 2
> zones controlled by a Taco SR 503 3-zone relay:
> one zone is for the baseboard heat and another
> for the hot water storage tank (a boderus 55-g
> tank). The circulators are Taco 007-F5.
>
> d)
> Are the circulator size properly for indirect
> tank?
>
> The HW storage tank is only about 5
> feet away from the boiler with at most 10ft of 1"
> piping between them. It pushes the hot water into
> the tank RATHER than pulling it thru the return
> pipe. The installer said that these tanks are
> meant to have water pushed into them. This
> circulator seems adequate enough in my
> inexperienced opinion.
>
> e) Are your circulator
> for the heat size properly?
>
> The house heat
> piping is as follows. One 1"+ pipe runs about
> 10ft from the boiler and it splits into 5
> branches. Four of those branches remain in the
> first floor, while the 5th, the problematic one,
> goes up to the second floor. 4 branches have 1/2"
> return pipe and a newer branch has a 1". The 5
> return branches "T" into one pipe to which a Taco
> circulator is attached. This pump "pulls" the
> water out of the system (ie, is connected to the
> return pipes).
>
> The circulator that burned out
> recently was the one feeding the baseboards. I
> too asked myself if he had undersized this pump
> and perhaps that's why it burned out. So I
> expressed my concerned to the installer he said
> that it was more than enough since I only have
> about 2000 sq. ft.
>
> In short, there was no
> explanation why a brand new pump would burn out.
> After it was removed, I noticed that the
> propeller inside was hard to turn with your hand.
> After some force, I finally managed to make it
> turn smoothly. The stuck propeller had caused the
> motor windings to overheat and burn. Another Taco
> 007 took its place.
>
> f) Did he size the
> expansion tank for the volume of water that in
> the system?
>
> Honestly, I do not remember the
> previous expansion tank. Currently, he has
> installed a 4.4G Amtrol Extrol Model 30.
>
> 3)
> jrc2905:
>
> a) Do you have an air vent on the
> top of the boiler?
>
> Yes. I have some pictures
> but no website to upload them to to link from
> here. If anyone knows where I can upload them to,
> let me know.
>
> 4) markwolf:
>
> a) that is by
> no means your installer's fault he replaced the
> boiler not the whole system.
>
> I would agree
> with you only if the problems had been there
> BEFORE he replaced the system. I never had lack
> of heat in the second floor. As a matter of fact,
> I asked him to plan for a future zone to control
> heat in that floor because it was always hotter
> than the 1st floor. With the previous system, I
> never had to bleed the system every few days in
> order to get the air out. Sure, the system may
> have developed a leak some where else in the
> pipes but odds are that it may be in the work he
> did.
>
> b) he did not show you how to use the
> air bleeders by all means.
>
> Yes, he did,
> including the full system flush which is a pain
> in the butt to be doing every few days.
>
> 5)
> mark r grant:
>
> a) Do you have an air seperator
> in the system?
>
> Dont now. What does it look
> like?
>
> b) Do you have antifreeze in the
> system?
>
> No, just regular well water. The
> quality of the well water is excellent.
>
> c) Do
> you have two pumps?
>
> Yes
>
> d) If your
> running out of hot water you might check the
> aquastat in the boiler.
>
> This is another issue
> entirely. 20 minutes seems very short to me. We
> especifically asked him to design the system so
> we wouldnt run out of hot water in the middle of
> a shower. To this date, we still do. My system
> uses the following aquastat: Honeywell Aquastat
> Relay L8124A. It has a high and a low limit. The
> first aquastat was replaced recently to attempt
> to fix the short cycling and the fact that the
> temperature gauge was reading different values
> than set in the aquastat. See the data below from
> experiments conducted to prove to the installer
> that something was not right with the aquastat.
> 2nd Heat Test
>
> Conditions: Heat was turned off
> at thermostat for about 90mins prior to test.
> Boiler temp was 150F. Burner was off. HW circ
> never turned on during test. House temp was 68F.
> Aquastat settings: differential of 15F, low of
> 130F and high of 180F
>
> 1) 5:00pm: Set
> thermostat to 74F. 2) 5:00pm: Burner &
> circulator turn ON right away. 3) 5:01pm:
> Boiler temp has dropped to 130F. 4) 5:05pm:
> Boiler temp rises to 140F. Circ still ON. 5)
> 5:07pm: Boiler temp rises to 150F. Circ still ON.
> 6) 5:09pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still
> ON. 7) 5:10pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or
> 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp: 69F 8)
> 5:18pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
> 9) 5:19pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3
> degrees. Circ still ON. House temp almost 70F.
> 10) 5:22pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still
> ON. 11) 5:23pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or
> 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp: 70F 12)
> 5:30pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
> 13) 5:31pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3
> degrees. Circ still ON. 14) 5:34pm: Boiler temp
> rises to 160F. Circ still ON. 15) 5:35pm:
> Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ
> still ON. House temp almost 72F. 16) 5:42pm:
> Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON. 17)
> 5:43pm: 5:31pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3
> degrees. Circ still ON. House temp 72F. 18)
> 5:45pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
> 19) 5:46pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4
> degrees. Circ still ON. 20) Test stopped.
> The second aquastat appears to behave very
> similar to this AND the high limit is off by 20F
> (have to set it at 200F in order for the burner
> to shut off at 180F).
>
> e) Is the boiler
> shutting down at 140?
>
> Nope. It normally shuts
> off much higher than that, around 160F or so.
> f) I would like to know also what type of radiant
> do you have?
>
> Im not sure what is called but
> is the common baseboard heating which uses
> convection to heat up the house by running
> hotwater thru pipes connected to metal fins.
> g) Do you have infloor and wall mounted or cast
> iron or? what?
>
> Not sure what you are asking
> here. The boiler is cast iron.
>
> 6) pjs:
>
> a)
> Did you get other prices on this boiler job
> Of course, I had 4 other offers. 2 offers for the
> boderus and two other offers for different
> brands.
>
> b) was this the lowest bid?
>
> No.
> It was actually the highest of all 4 bids. I
> didnt want to have any problems so I didnt mind
> paying for a good system. I chose the bid from
> the person who was already servicing the old
> system. He had seemed good enough the only other
> 2 times I had contacted him.
>
> c) did they
> offer any other add ons ie Spirovent air
> seperator.
>
> No. Dont know what an air
> separator is.
>
> d) did they offer a larger h/w
> tank
>
> He told me that the 53g was an overkill
> and had offered a smaller version. I decided
> larger is always better even if wasteful.
>
> e)
> did they even look at the system [ that is the
> existing piping ]
>
> Not when he gave me the
> quote but he was the one servicing the old system
> with the previous owner for the last 10+ years so
> he assured me he knew exactly what was in place.
> f) did they ask if you have any problem areas ie
> rooms that don't heat.
>
> I told him the
> upstairs got too hot even when the only
> thermostat in the 1st floor was set to 66F. This
> is why I had him build the ability to add a 2nd
> zone in the future.
>
> g) You had him change the
> aquastat did you determine this to be a problem
> or did he make this determination
>
> I told him
> about the short cycling. I went to the honeywell
> site and downloaded the specs. I read them cover
> to cover. I understood how they function. I
> conducted several tests (one of which is included
> above). I had him come over. I demonstrated my
> observations. He agreed it was not behaving as
> designed. He changed the part.
>
> h) It seems
> some of the problems your having you may have
> caused, directly or indirectly.
>
> I seriously
> doubt it. I did plenty of equipment research. I
> got 4 quotes. I trusted the installer who had
> already maintained the previous system and who is
> reputable with several of the neighbords. I paid
> him $6K to install a brand new system so I
> wouldnt have any more hot water problems. I did
> the buyer beware portion. He installed it and
> it doesnt work properly. It is not my fault at
> all.
>
> 7) slimwoodie
>
> a) find where your
> leak is .....make up water's bringin' the air
> Good theory but Ive looked every where I cant
> find a leak. Is there a way to prevent the
> make-up water from entering the system to
> verify that there is indeed a leak? Would the
> pressure of the system drop as the water level
> does?
>
> ------------------------------- end of
> replies -----------------------------------
> Another issue I forgot to mention is that the
> burner kept mis-firing after the initial install.
> The only way to get to stay ON was to decrease
> the nozzle size from the factory setting. I think
> this is now fixed and no longer an issue so it is
> probably in now way related to the current
> problem.
>
> Thanks again to all of you.
> Roger Cruz
> I posted this question in the HVAC-Talk site. A
> few people recommended that I ask here. Below is
> my original post and my reply (with more info
> added). It is long but please do me the favor to
> read it and provide me with your expertise. I'm
> running out of options with my new system
> install.
> http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?postid=196
> 746
>
> Thanks in advance. Roger
>
> Last summer I
> had a new Boderus + Reillo system installed
> (thanks to all of those who helped me with this
> selection). Now that winter is here, the system
> has been turned on and lots of issues have come
> up.
>
> The present problem is that the 2nd floor
> is not getting heat. I have investigated the
> problem and I can feel that the return pipe
> (forced hot water system) for that floor is
> always cold when the other return pipes in the
> zone are hot. I told this to the installer and he
> said this was air in the pipes. He flushed them
> once and heat returned to the upstairs floor. A
> couple of hours later, the return pipe was cold
> again and no heat was reaching upstairs.
>
> The
> installer came for a 2nd time and flush that
> return pipe again (while the other returns of
> branches in the zone were OFF). Heat returned
> once again. Now 4 days later, I have the same
> problem again. The installer told me that if this
> problem reoccurred, that I was to flush the pipes
> myself. I paid him a large chunk of change for
> this installation and I expected a flawless
> system. Now I'm here in the middle of the night
> having to flush the system.
>
> My problem is
> that because the rest of the heating pipes in the
> house were not installed by him (he just changed
> the furnace, circulators, hot water storage tank,
> etc), I can't force him to come back and find the
> problem. He has asked me to search for a leak
> some where else in the system.
>
> How can I
> possibly find where air is getting into the
> system? Logically, since the upstairs heating was
> fine before the new installation, I think that it
> is a problem with his work. I have looked around
> and see no water or corrosion on the pipes that
> are visible, but of course, many of the pipes are
> under the floor or behind walls. Can some liquid
> with smell be injected into the system to help
> track the leak? What else can my installer do to
> solve this problem?
>
> At this point, winter is
> fast approaching and I just want to resolve the
> problem so ANY help is extremely appreciated.
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Roger Cruz
>
> PS. Just
> in case this help. Here is a summary of the other
> problems with the system:
>
> 1) A circulator
> burned out for no apparent reason. It was
> replaced.
>
> 2) The gauge readings do not match
> the aquastat high limit settings.
>
> 3) The
> burner short-cycles too much. I had him replace
> the aquastat but the problem still there.
>
> 4)
> With a boderus 55 gallon hot water storage tank,
> I consistently run out of hot water after 20
> minutes. He had told me that with this size tank,
> I should have no problems with the hot water.
> ----------------------- My response to several
> helping souls:
>
> I'll start by saying thanks to
> all who have replied so far. I will also address
> all of your questions in this message. This is
> going to be long but please stick to it. I need
> all the help I can get.
>
> 1) Toolpusher:
>
> I
> will investigate this site
> (http://heatinghelp.com/ ) as soon as I'm done
> with this reply.
>
> 2) Simpleman:
>
> a) I'm
> thinking as well that it may be an install
> problem. They had indicated to me that they would
> have no problem with the Boderus+Riello
> installation when I got the quote but after
> further talking to them, I now know that they've
> only done 2 thus far.
>
> b) Did he pump away
> from the point of no pressure change?
>
> I'm not
> sure what you are asking here. See my description
> of the location of the circulators below if
> thats what you mean.
>
> c) What type of
> dritribustion system do you have?
>
> There are 2
> zones controlled by a Taco SR 503 3-zone relay:
> one zone is for the baseboard heat and another
> for the hot water storage tank (a boderus 55-g
> tank). The circulators are Taco 007-F5.
>
> d)
> Are the circulator size properly for indirect
> tank?
>
> The HW storage tank is only about 5
> feet away from the boiler with at most 10ft of 1"
> piping between them. It pushes the hot water into
> the tank RATHER than pulling it thru the return
> pipe. The installer said that these tanks are
> meant to have water pushed into them. This
> circulator seems adequate enough in my
> inexperienced opinion.
>
> e) Are your circulator
> for the heat size properly?
>
> The house heat
> piping is as follows. One 1"+ pipe runs about
> 10ft from the boiler and it splits into 5
> branches. Four of those branches remain in the
> first floor, while the 5th, the problematic one,
> goes up to the second floor. 4 branches have 1/2"
> return pipe and a newer branch has a 1". The 5
> return branches "T" into one pipe to which a Taco
> circulator is attached. This pump "pulls" the
> water out of the system (ie, is connected to the
> return pipes).
>
> The circulator that burned out
> recently was the one feeding the baseboards. I
> too asked myself if he had undersized this pump
> and perhaps that's why it burned out. So I
> expressed my concerned to the installer he said
> that it was more than enough since I only have
> about 2000 sq. ft.
>
> In short, there was no
> explanation why a brand new pump would burn out.
> After it was removed, I noticed that the
> propeller inside was hard to turn with your hand.
> After some force, I finally managed to make it
> turn smoothly. The stuck propeller had caused the
> motor windings to overheat and burn. Another Taco
> 007 took its place.
>
> f) Did he size the
> expansion tank for the volume of water that in
> the system?
>
> Honestly, I do not remember the
> previous expansion tank. Currently, he has
> installed a 4.4G Amtrol Extrol Model 30.
>
> 3)
> jrc2905:
>
> a) Do you have an air vent on the
> top of the boiler?
>
> Yes. I have some pictures
> but no website to upload them to to link from
> here. If anyone knows where I can upload them to,
> let me know.
>
> 4) markwolf:
>
> a) that is by
> no means your installer's fault he replaced the
> boiler not the whole system.
>
> I would agree
> with you only if the problems had been there
> BEFORE he replaced the system. I never had lack
> of heat in the second floor. As a matter of fact,
> I asked him to plan for a future zone to control
> heat in that floor because it was always hotter
> than the 1st floor. With the previous system, I
> never had to bleed the system every few days in
> order to get the air out. Sure, the system may
> have developed a leak some where else in the
> pipes but odds are that it may be in the work he
> did.
>
> b) he did not show you how to use the
> air bleeders by all means.
>
> Yes, he did,
> including the full system flush which is a pain
> in the butt to be doing every few days.
>
> 5)
> mark r grant:
>
> a) Do you have an air seperator
> in the system?
>
> Dont now. What does it look
> like?
>
> b) Do you have antifreeze in the
> system?
>
> No, just regular well water. The
> quality of the well water is excellent.
>
> c) Do
> you have two pumps?
>
> Yes
>
> d) If your
> running out of hot water you might check the
> aquastat in the boiler.
>
> This is another issue
> entirely. 20 minutes seems very short to me. We
> especifically asked him to design the system so
> we wouldnt run out of hot water in the middle of
> a shower. To this date, we still do. My system
> uses the following aquastat: Honeywell Aquastat
> Relay L8124A. It has a high and a low limit. The
> first aquastat was replaced recently to attempt
> to fix the short cycling and the fact that the
> temperature gauge was reading different values
> than set in the aquastat. See the data below from
> experiments conducted to prove to the installer
> that something was not right with the aquastat.
> 2nd Heat Test
>
> Conditions: Heat was turned off
> at thermostat for about 90mins prior to test.
> Boiler temp was 150F. Burner was off. HW circ
> never turned on during test. House temp was 68F.
> Aquastat settings: differential of 15F, low of
> 130F and high of 180F
>
> 1) 5:00pm: Set
> thermostat to 74F. 2) 5:00pm: Burner &
> circulator turn ON right away. 3) 5:01pm:
> Boiler temp has dropped to 130F. 4) 5:05pm:
> Boiler temp rises to 140F. Circ still ON. 5)
> 5:07pm: Boiler temp rises to 150F. Circ still ON.
> 6) 5:09pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still
> ON. 7) 5:10pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or
> 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp: 69F 8)
> 5:18pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
> 9) 5:19pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3
> degrees. Circ still ON. House temp almost 70F.
> 10) 5:22pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still
> ON. 11) 5:23pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or
> 4 degrees. Circ still ON. House temp: 70F 12)
> 5:30pm: Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON.
> 13) 5:31pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3
> degrees. Circ still ON. 14) 5:34pm: Boiler temp
> rises to 160F. Circ still ON. 15) 5:35pm:
> Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4 degrees. Circ
> still ON. House temp almost 72F. 16) 5:42pm:
> Boiler temp drops to 160F. Circ still ON. 17)
> 5:43pm: 5:31pm: Boiler turns ON at 160F 2 or 3
> degrees. Circ still ON. House temp 72F. 18)
> 5:45pm: Boiler temp rises to 160F. Circ still ON.
> 19) 5:46pm: Burner turns OFF at 160F + 3 or 4
> degrees. Circ still ON. 20) Test stopped.
> The second aquastat appears to behave very
> similar to this AND the high limit is off by 20F
> (have to set it at 200F in order for the burner
> to shut off at 180F).
>
> e) Is the boiler
> shutting down at 140?
>
> Nope. It normally shuts
> off much higher than that, around 160F or so.
> f) I would like to know also what type of radiant
> do you have?
>
> Im not sure what is called but
> is the common baseboard heating which uses
> convection to heat up the house by running
> hotwater thru pipes connected to metal fins.
> g) Do you have infloor and wall mounted or cast
> iron or? what?
>
> Not sure what you are asking
> here. The boiler is cast iron.
>
> 6) pjs:
>
> a)
> Did you get other prices on this boiler job
> Of course, I had 4 other offers. 2 offers for the
> boderus and two other offers for different
> brands.
>
> b) was this the lowest bid?
>
> No.
> It was actually the highest of all 4 bids. I
> didnt want to have any problems so I didnt mind
> paying for a good system. I chose the bid from
> the person who was already servicing the old
> system. He had seemed good enough the only other
> 2 times I had contacted him.
>
> c) did they
> offer any other add ons ie Spirovent air
> seperator.
>
> No. Dont know what an air
> separator is.
>
> d) did they offer a larger h/w
> tank
>
> He told me that the 53g was an overkill
> and had offered a smaller version. I decided
> larger is always better even if wasteful.
>
> e)
> did they even look at the system [ that is the
> existing piping ]
>
> Not when he gave me the
> quote but he was the one servicing the old system
> with the previous owner for the last 10+ years so
> he assured me he knew exactly what was in place.
> f) did they ask if you have any problem areas ie
> rooms that don't heat.
>
> I told him the
> upstairs got too hot even when the only
> thermostat in the 1st floor was set to 66F. This
> is why I had him build the ability to add a 2nd
> zone in the future.
>
> g) You had him change the
> aquastat did you determine this to be a problem
> or did he make this determination
>
> I told him
> about the short cycling. I went to the honeywell
> site and downloaded the specs. I read them cover
> to cover. I understood how they function. I
> conducted several tests (one of which is included
> above). I had him come over. I demonstrated my
> observations. He agreed it was not behaving as
> designed. He changed the part.
>
> h) It seems
> some of the problems your having you may have
> caused, directly or indirectly.
>
> I seriously
> doubt it. I did plenty of equipment research. I
> got 4 quotes. I trusted the installer who had
> already maintained the previous system and who is
> reputable with several of the neighbords. I paid
> him $6K to install a brand new system so I
> wouldnt have any more hot water problems. I did
> the buyer beware portion. He installed it and
> it doesnt work properly. It is not my fault at
> all.
>
> 7) slimwoodie
>
> a) find where your
> leak is .....make up water's bringin' the air
> Good theory but Ive looked every where I cant
> find a leak. Is there a way to prevent the
> make-up water from entering the system to
> verify that there is indeed a leak? Would the
> pressure of the system drop as the water level
> does?
>
> ------------------------------- end of
> replies -----------------------------------
> Another issue I forgot to mention is that the
> burner kept mis-firing after the initial install.
> The only way to get to stay ON was to decrease
> the nozzle size from the factory setting. I think
> this is now fixed and no longer an issue so it is
> probably in now way related to the current
> problem.
>
> Thanks again to all of you.
> Roger Cruz
0 -
Problems
It is very hard to diagnose a problem with out seeing it. Things that come to mind is that maybe the circulator is too small for the system, maybe return lines are undersized (1/2"), possible that the boiler was undersized for your system? Did you have anybody else come in to take a look at the job and maybe diagnose the problem? Where are you located?0 -
How many
thermostats? Do the 5 pipes leaving the one inch supply have "flow checks" or zone valves? The pump would work better on the supply "pushing " the water. The part about the nozzle and the aquastat gives some concern. In the long run it may be cheaper to hire a second opinion and have the problem resolved. You can post pictures here in jpg format.0 -
air in pipes
click on to find a contracter at this site best of luck
To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"0 -
Roger, what you need to do is this........
call your local oil dealer and ask for the owner! and explain that you NEED his help. Ask him who is a good heating system technician that he would trust so you can buy his oil. Most of us in the business know who's good and who's not. Be prepared to spent a couple of bucks but your payback and comfort will be worth it. Hope this helps! P.S. you have a good system that needs some adjusting and maybe some piping done over,0 -
Replies to your questions
1) Master Plumb:
a) the circulator is too small for the system.
Already had this discussion with the installer. He claims is fine.
b) possible that the boiler was undersized for your system?
Actually, it is oversized at is original nozzle size. It was specifically done this way to provide enough BTUs for a coming addition.
c) Did you have anybody else come in to take a look at the job and maybe diagnose the problem?
Not yet. I first wanted to see what the internet had to provide.
2) bill nye:
a) How many thermostats?
Just one in the 1st floor.
b) Do the 5 pipes leaving the one inch supply have "flow checks"
Yes, Taco Flo-Chek
c) You can post pictures here in jpg format.
I'll try it in this post.
3) John@Reliable:
a) call your local oil dealer and ask for the owner!
I'll have to find another dealer as the installer is also my oil supplier. They've been in business for over 100 yrs and they are well respected.
b) Be prepared to spent a couple of bucks but your payback and comfort will be worth it.
I'll be willing to do this real soon.
----------------------
Pictures:
What I really need is a sure way to find where the air is getting into the pipes. This is really the reason why the upstairs does not get any heat. Once air gets into the pipes, it fails to heat up any more in the 2nd floor. Once I get the air out, I'm nice and toasty.0 -
Roger, you could try this
From your pictures it looks like pumps are on returns, not a good thing. Close the caps on Taco air vents & leave closed than purge system,1 zone at a time,put hose end in a bucket this way you can see air coming out,each zone could take 15-30 mins. to get it all out. I would consider moving pumps to "pumping away" and adding a better air removel system Hope this helps John@Reliable I would also talk to oil company about making the job right or find a new one if they are unwilling to help0 -
How do you know?
How do you know it's air? do you ever hear air slushing around in any other part of the system. When you bleed it do you you bleed it into a five gallon bucket to see if any air comes out(you'll see bubbles in the water)? What I'm getting at is its not always air that prevents water from circulating. What I want to know is how tall is the house? specifically how many feet of vertical piping to the second floor? I'm thinking you may not have enough pressure in the system. 1 psi lift water to a hight of 2.31 ft, but you'll also need some extra pressure to circulate. Add an additional 4-6 psi on top af the psi need to get the water to correct height.0 -
hey
is the system "air bound" now? if yes, do not try to purge it yet. if not, try this the next time you have a problem. i want to make sure that it is, or is not, an air problem. it looks like you have 5 returns with ball valves on them. do you know which return is for the zone that is not heating? if you know which one it is, then close off all the ball valves except the one you are having problems with. turn up t-stat. wait 5 mins., did the return pipe on the problem zone get hot? if yes then you need to use those ball valves as balanceing valves. if no then i might not be of any help.0 -
Roger
I think it is a piping issue and not an air thing.Please e-mail me with a valid address.0 -
Roger
I think it is a piping issue and not an air thing.Please e-mail me with a valid address.0 -
air trapped
How about getting a way to bleed the air out of the feed end return stub outs? Why didn't you leave the future stub outs below the ones now being used. Water heaver than air??? Change the end caps to reducers and put auto bleed in.
al0 -
I see ....
An air scoop that is far too close to the boiler out let . If memory serves me correctly , there should be 18"(at least) between the outlet and that air scoop . The water is getting by there too fast to have a chance for the scoop to do its job .You might be able to get a Spirovent in there . May help . Keep us posted and let us know the outcome . Good luck. Chris0 -
Replies to your questions...
1) Bob C:
a) How do you know it's air?
I hear the gurgling sound of water as it runs thru the pipes. It is not the pipe expanding pinging and banging noise. The installer also said it was air. He has flushed it twice already with the 5g bucket and we can see the bubble and the hose "kicking".
b) What I want to know is how tall is the house?
From the basement to the 2nd floor baseboard is about 12-15ft.
c) I'm thinking you may not have enough pressure in the system.
The system is usually running about 20 PSI. According to your formula, that should give me over 30ft or about double my vertical height.
2) bill nye:
a) Please e-mail me with a valid address.
Done.
3) John@Reliable:
a) From your pictures it looks like pumps are on returns
The pump for the baseboard heat is indeed on the return. The pump for the HW tank is on the supply side.
b) Close the caps on Taco air vents & leave closed than purge system,1 zone at a time,put hose end in a bucket
Yeap, we have done this as well - 1 branch at a time.
4) eleft (retired):
a) How about getting a way to bleed the air out of the feed end return stub outs?
This sounds like a good idea. Any specific "reducers" I should ask him to put in?
b) Why didn't you leave the future stub outs below the ones now being used.
No reason. This is just the way they chose to do it. I have no idea which way is better.
5) sootmonkey:
a) is the system "air bound" now?
I took some air last night in order to get heat upstairs but it only takes a few days for it to get "clogged" completely where no hot water reaches the pipes in the second floor.
b) it looks like you have 5 returns with ball valves on them. do you know which return is for the zone that is not heating?
True and Yes. The return pipe in question is the 4th (left to right) in the picture.
c) if you know which one it is, then close off all the ball valves except the one you are having problems with. turn up t-stat. wait 5 mins., did the return pipe on the problem zone get hot?
I did something like this previously on my own. I wanted to make sure that it was not a problem with an undersized circulator so I closed 3 of the 5 branches and left the upstairs and another branch ON (I wasn't sure that it would be safe for the pump to run it with a branch that would not circulate). The temperature in the pipe did not change after 5 minutes. However, when I reopened the other 3 pipes, the upstairs pipe got hot immediately.
6) J.C.A:
a)An air scoop that is far too close to the boiler out let
See the picture "Boiler supply and returns".
I can tell you the measurement from the boiler to the elbow is 10" and from the elbow to the Taco air vent is 7". Is this what you are talking about?
Thanks again to all of those replying.
Roger0 -
your question on reducer size
This sounds like a good idea. Any specific "reducers" I should ask him to put in?
Yes from the boiler pipe size to the air vent size, this one is 1/8th pipe0 -
pressure test
have you done a pressure test for the problem zone? Isolate the problem zone by closing the supply and return valves to the zone and connect a pressure gauge to the hose bibb used to purge the system. Check your gauge in one hour to see if pressure has dropped. This does not rule out a leak elsewhere in the system. Monitor your pressure gauge often with the feed valve closed. Also, temperature must remain constant, so shut the boiler while doing this.0 -
Not an air problem.......or
Sounds to me like its not an air problem, or the installer is not purging the system correctly. If this is a baseboard loop system(which I guess it is from the purge valves), it shouldnt take more then once or twice(done correctly) to purge all of the air out of the loop in question, unless there is a leak somewhere, this is a definite. I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything but it seems that you are taking the installers word on everything. If he is so knowledgeable he should be able to solve this problem, especially if it is an air problem. Just my thoughts...Chris0 -
Expainsion pipes
Didn't see where expansion tank is, the stub outs could very well be the problem, air will flow to its highest, easiest points. Where is the feed valve connected? With no way to auto eliminate the air, every time you bleed/purge system your bringing in fresh oxygen/air rich water, a vicious cycle.Spirovent, pump away, diaphram expansion tank and air vents on the stubs.Good luck0 -
Lets see...mmmm
I wanted to add a thougth to you indirect waterheater problem. Which aquastat did he change the one on the boiler or the one on the tank? That tank should be capable of generating around 199g/hr you should not run out. Of course buderus bases this on 194 degree boiler water temp. I was wondering if he used any heat transfer grease on the aquastat probe? Most plumbers don't know about this grease. It's only when you have trouble with a few aquastats that you ask enough questions and learn about it. If air can get in to where the probe sits it can act as an insulator and throw off the sensor. Any place that sells controls should know what grease you need.
I'm troubled by the down sizing of the nozzel but if that taco contol has a priority switch you should put it on. Priority means that the heating circ won't come on until the tank is satisfied. But I'm assuming you had this lack of hot water problem during the summer as well.
As for the air That air scoop (seperator) is not piped correctly. But beyond that I would verify if I had a leak. I would shut off the boiler feed valve and note the pressure in the system. Then I would check it an hour later. and so on. If you see it drop start looking for the leak. ALso pipes tend to show leaks when they are cold (not expanded) I would not go yelling at the plumber about the air scoop those cheap scoops only work on start up as far as I'm concerned. A costly but better product is the spirovent. and best of all it doesn't require 18" of space.
I hope you solve your troubles good luck!0 -
Replies to your questions....
1) eleft (retired):
a) Yes from the boiler pipe size to the air vent size, this one is 1/8th pipe
I think I already have this air reducer in place. Look at the picture "Boiler supply and return pipes" above.
2) Master Plumb:
a) Sounds to me like its not an air problem, or the installer is not purging the system correctly.
Could it also be that air keeps getting in constantly? So no matter how many times we purge, it will continue to accumulate? With all the input from this website, a plausible theory maybe that there is a leak (very likely inside the boiler) that causes new water to come in. I may not be able to find any drippage because the leak if the leak is in side the boiler, then it will evaporate and go out the chimney.
And don't worry about being a "wise guy", sometimes this helps in looking for another solution.
3) Bob C:
a) Which aquastat did he change the one on the boiler or the one on the tank?
The one on the boiler. The new one still acts the same way.
b) That tank should be capable of generating around 199g/hr you should not run out.
That was my understanding.
c) I was wondering if he used any heat transfer grease on the aquastat probe?
I wasn't there when he installed it so I don't know.
d) I'm troubled by the down sizing of the nozzel
I challenged this too since before purchasing the equipment, I spoke to the manufacturer and they suggested that it should not be down-sized. However, this is the only way to get it to run steadily and not misfire.
e) But I'm assuming you had this lack of hot water problem during the summer as well
Yes, I've conducted my recent tests with the heat OFF to prove that it was not a priority issue.
f) As for the air That air scoop (seperator) is not piped correctly.
Could you be more specific? Is it just the distance?
g) I would shut off the boiler feed valve and note the pressure in the system.
Should the boiler be running during this time or do I need to make sure it does not run at all (the hot water increases the pressure, right?)
4) Senator Frank Lautenberg:
a) have you done a pressure test for the problem zone?
Nope, but I intent to ask for one.
5) bluenose
a) Didn't see where expansion tank is.
It is a 4.4G amtrol
----------- end of replies ----------
As another piece of information, I have included an AVI movie as an attachment. It shows the system firing up. To me the sound doesn't sound right (ie, not very smoooth) but the installer said that was normal. The initial 10+ seconds of sound are the fan on the burner "purging" the combustion chamber. Download this file only if you have a fast connection as it is 4MB.
Thanks.
Roger0 -
If it is a leak "inside the boiler" then why would only that one loop be air bound??? Chris0 -
If it is a leak "inside the boiler" then why would only that one loop be air bound??? Chris0 -
Air
If it is a leak "inside the boiler" then why would only that one loop be air bound??? Chris0 -
1) MasterPlumb:
a) If it is a leak "inside the boiler" then why would only that one loop be air bound???
According to the installer "air will rise to the highest point in the system". This is the 2nd floor branch.
Roger0 -
air
not neccessarily in a forced water system.0 -
air in pipes
> 1) MasterPlumb:
>
> a) If it is a leak "inside
> the boiler" then why would only that one loop be
> air bound???
>
> According to the installer
> "air will rise to the highest point in the
> system". This is the 2nd floor branch.
> Roger
Is the expansion tank a new one or part of the old system?
Is there any water discharged from the boiler safety valve during the hot/cold cycles (place a can/bucket under the discharge to catch any water)? The air wouldn't get in if the system was full of water.
Any pressure gauges, does the system gradually loose pressure as the air problem accumulates? Pressure readings should be with the system cold.
There is almost certainly a balancing problem, but this probably isn't the only problem.
Any air vents, or automatic air vents, on the 2nd floor?
0 -
air in pipes
Is the expansion tank a new one or part of the old system?
Is there any water discharged from the boiler safety valve during the hot/cold cycles (place a can/bucket under the discharge to catch any water)? The air wouldn't get in if the system was full of water.
Any pressure gauges? With the feed valve isolated, does the system gradually lose pressure as the air problem accumulates? Pressure readings should be with the system cold.
There is almost certainly a balancing problem, but this probably isn't the only problem.
Any air vents, or automatic air vents, on the 2nd floor?0
This discussion has been closed.
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