Hoffman #30 Boiler return trap and # 30 reciever vent

Eddie Cutts_2

Steamhead we are located about 8 miles out of Easton, MD. headed for St. Micheals. With further observation I think your questioning of the return trap is correct, I think it has failed, and is not allowing any steam into the trap. I think at this point what we have is a failed #30 and at best an ineffiecent gravity feed. I am getting prepared to go into the # 30 and will document and post as I go.We will have to end the open pipe connections and mannually drain the condensate and feed the boiler.

Eddie Cutts

Hoffman two pipe problems#30boiler return trap and reciever vent

Edmund A. Cutts,Jr.
Auburn Farm 410-822-0546 hm ph
Cutts and Case, Inc. 410-226-5416 wk ph 410-226-5035 fax
27386 Trippe Road
Easton, MD. 21601

November 20, 2002
Re: Hoffman two pipe steam problems

We have a system that looks quite like fig. # 56 on page 266 “ The Lost Art of Steam Heat” however we don’t have the thermostatic steam trap from the end of the steam supply to the dry return. We do have a 4A Quik Vent on the ends of the steam supplies.
We have two steam supplies one on the north side and one on the south side with 9 radiators on each run. The thermostat is in the east room over the supply ends with the 4A Quik vents.
The traps are the old Hoffman # 8, these are before they put in the removable seats. We have used the last of our thermostats # B 563. We are now considering drilling and tapping our old trap castings and fitting them with Armstrong “T” wafer type traps or updating to the “new” 8c.
We recently replaced the long straight runs of both pressure returns, one had rusted through and we were losing water daily. The new lines were not pitched well but laid on the ground surface and reconnected to the old pressure return lines at their ends.
The problem we are having is one of mid and late cycle water hammer. I think this is from condensate backing up at the ends of the main supplies and not returning to the boiler. My reasoning is as follows after start up the first radiators on the lines heat up nicely and with little or no hammer about mid cycle the hammer begins by the time the mid line radiators heat up the east end room radiators are still stone cold therefore the thermostat is still calling for more heat, you can hear the water getting slammed around and sloshing in the pipes. The other radiators are really hot now, but you still hear this thumping and banging. If I go down to the boiler room at this point I will see some water getting blasted out of the # 30 receiver vent, these blasts of water will be coordinated with the prolific thumps from the other end of the system. Water will also be spurting out of the 4A Quik vents. NOW if I shut the system down and crawl under the building and remove the Quik vents water will spill out of the steam supply ends. So if I go back to the boiler room and open the top of the check valve closest to the boiler the boiler will drain some water (approx. 5 gallons) and the condensate will also be drained from the returns. If I hastily make my way to the supply ends and crawl under the house the ends will be dry and when I get back to the boiler room the flow will have ended (indicating to me the ability of the condensate to flow pretty well). Having reinstalled the 4A vents at supply ends and the cap on the check valve near the boiler, we can top the water off in the boiler and start up the unit, she will produce steam and heat the house in one cycle and not hammer or gurgle a single pipe.
On the next cycle she will stop, (low water, it’s in the ends of the supplies) and when more water is added she will hammer when she makes enough steam to pressurize the ends.
We have a number Hoffman # 30 boiler return trap coupled with a # 30 receiver vent. I have watched the condensate in the sight glass on the boiler return trap slowly go up to the very top of the glass and then slowly come back down to the bottom and I do think it is returning condensate but I don’t if it is fast enough. I think the check valves allow the condensate to fill the pipe into the boiler return trap and when this column of water is above the boiler waterline by a bit it floats open a valve allowing steam in and equalizing the pressure and the column of water above the boiler waterline loads itself into the boiler. Nice piece of work Huh.
I am a capable mechanic/machinist with tools, and do respect the beauty and significant understanding of the physics of steam the past gentleman had. We would like to get our system in top working order, to be smooth, quiet and understood.

Questions:

What do you think we should do with this system?
What goes on in the receiver vent??
What is the function of the pipe from the boiler receiver vent to the dry return?
What is the function of the pipe from the boiler return trap to the dry return?
Should I dissemble the # 30 boiler return trap for maintenance & inspection??
How can I test boiler return trap with out dissemble??
What else would back up condensate in the supply ends??
Is it possible to reverse pressurize the pressure return?
Are the Armstrong wafer traps any good?
How much am I missing here? (besides sleep and blankets)
Would you recommend a pump system and scrap the boiler return trap?
Are the 8c traps good? The 8 sure were.

Thanks E.A. Cutts, Jr.

We can digitally image any portion of the system for your visual interests.

Steamhead

\"We can digitally image any portion of the system\"..........

Please do! We love this old stuff.

Obviously the condensate is not returning to the boiler as it should. First things I'd check for:

1. Check valves operational and installed in the right direction. The flow thru both should point toward the boiler.

2. Return lines properly connected. Only the condensate from the overhead ("dry") returns should go thru the Return Trap. The condensate from the ends of the steam mains should NOT go thru the Return Trap.

3. Return Trap working properly. If there is a 1/2" pipe between the Trap and the dry return, and this pipe gets hot immediately on a cold start, the Return Trap is shot.

Try these and get back to us.



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Unknown

Do you run the steam pressure low?

Like under a pound?

Noel

Eddie Cutts

Check out

Check valves seem okay, clean, flow in the right direction. On cold start # 30 boiler return trap "exhaust" line to dry return did not heat up at all, niether did the piping near the port labled "steam". I did watch the condensate rise slowly to the top of the sight glass and then go back down, but did not sense any heat or noise in the trap.I will try to get some images up this evening.

Eddie Cutts

steam pressure

I think we are at about 1-1/2 lbs or less

Steamhead

Where are you located, Eddie?

maybe one of us is close to your area.........

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Steamhead

Easton's not that far from Baltimore

why don't we set something up? E-mail me with some idea of when would be a good time.

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tp tunstall

condensator

we have the capabilities of rebuilding that unit

Steamhead

Just the B&J Condensator return trap

or any make?

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Eddie Cutts_2

Secrets of the Hoffman # 30 revealed

Appears float was stuck in the closed position. Sunday spent removing,dissembling,cleaning,fitting,reassembling and placing back on line.

Eddie Cutts_2

Eddie Cutts_2

Steamhead

One Problem Solved

Eddie asked me to post these, they are views of a severely gunked-up Hoffman Return Trap. The float was anchored in a pile of gunk on the bottom and the rising water couldn't budge it. He cleaned it out and reassembled it, and it works perfectly now.


Eddie, you sound like the kind of guy I'd love to work with!

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Unknown

Steamhead, I have the booklet

For that...B&J still have the kits, too.

But they don't post on the wall..........

Missed you this weekend. So did a lot of people. Hope you get to one of these. I grinned all day long. And half the night, too!

Noel

tp tunstall

condensator

any make, steam head.....but we will need the unit sent to us. as you know we make steam traps and manufacture linkages etc and stock all the floats etc. look us up at www.tunstall-inc.com

Steamhead

Thanks!

I'll keep that in mind.

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Eddie Cutts

wet returns & vents

Still piling up condesate in the wet return. How does the wet return get the condensate back to the boiler ? It appears that the pressure from the steam supply would be equalized by its open communication to the boiler at the pressure return. If thats the case then I would have to presume the only way back would be by gravity.
Do the vents on the end of the supplies open and close during a heating cycle to allow the condensate to move down the wet return?

Steamhead

That's right, they work by gravity

The steam main vents should not need to open to let the water return. I think you have a very slow wet return there.

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