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Outdoor Reset is Obsolete

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Bob Tonner
Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
in THE MAIN WALL
Our new Hydronix boiler control has a new technology that comes built-in that essentially makes outdoor reset obsolete. Using a proprietary techique that we call "Dynamic Demand Profiling" our control is able to accurately calculate the rate of heat-loss of a home/building and adjusts the high limit and differential on a constant basis.

To enable or disable this feature on our control one must simple go to the Boiler Setup menu and select "Auto: ON" or "Auto: OFF".

There are NO external sensors to connect, NO reset ratios to guess at, and most importantly NO rediculous expense associated with it.

The Dynamic Demand Profiling feature works in harmony with the indirect DHW control option that is available, in that it still pulls the boiler up to a temperature that is at least 15 degrees F above the DHW setpoint before it will enable the circulator for the i-DHW. After the i-DHW is satisfied, the boiler will resume its modified high-limit and differential as calculated by the DDP.

Our goal is to see dramatic increases in occupant comfort as well as energy savings and a reduction in greenhouse gas emission for the sake of our environment, without requiring technicians to obtain a PhD from some factory-school to do it.

Best regards

Bob Tonner,
President,
InfinityLab Inc.

Comments

  • Boilerpro
    Boilerpro Member Posts: 410
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    What is the basis...

    for the load profiling...cycle length,water temps, outdoor temp, operation history,etc. I expect it is a combination of these.


    Boilerpro
  • Mark Eatherton1
    Mark Eatherton1 Member Posts: 2,542
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    When

    will it be commercially available. Also, put me on your list of Beta testers.

    ME

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  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    The technology is...

    The technology is secret at this time. It is a requirement of the US Patent and Tradmark Office that it remains that way for the time being. InfinityLab will make the algorithm public early in the new year.

    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab Inc.
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    Availability

    Mark,

    If all goes well with testing and approvals you can look for it to be available in the springtime.

    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab Inc.
  • Duncan_2
    Duncan_2 Member Posts: 174
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    Indoor reset is here? Questions and observations.

    Bob, you said the control "...adjusts the high limit and differential on a constant basis". That's reset.

    It appears the "outdoor" part of your Dynamic Demand Profiling is based on heat loss. Which in turn is based on outdoor temperature.

    But heat loss also takes indoor temperature into account (T outside - T inside).

    Sounds like your control goes a step further in that it looks at EACH HOME'S UNIQUE heat loss characteristics, rather than basing it on a static reset curve. That's hardly a PhD level adjustment, but definitely the weakest link of standard outdoor reset controls... It's often a guess, or tampered with by the homeowner, as you point out.

    Does it sense indoor temperature with a proprietary thermostat connected to the boiler?

    It doesn't allow the DHW circ to come on untill the boiler is 15°F above the DHW. Is this a recovery time advantage tradeoff for efficiency, or is there also a post-demand delay to scrub heat off the boiler?

    Great idea! Tell us more.

    By the way, if you're not in the marketing department of your company, you should be. ;-) Outdoor reset is obsolete... REALLY! *chuckle*
  • J.C.A.
    J.C.A. Member Posts: 349
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    Just a note ...

    To Duncan and the rest .....Bob IS the company ! I had the chance to meet him in the spring of 2000 at the NEFI show in Boston . His aim was true then . He asked for a booth directly across from the Honeywell booth . (What balls he has ! ) His thinking is a level above their complacentcy , and he's not afraid to show it .I also had the pleasure of taking him with me , at his request , for a day in the life scenerio . He asked for a few techs to take him out for the day and work with them . His questions were tough , but it was the reason for him being there . He wanted the feel from the field . "how would you like to see...." came up a lot that day . He asked the right questions also .
    The culmination of his endeavors are being shown in his new product .What more can you ask of a MANUFACTURER than to spend time and effort in the field and ask the buyers and sellers of thier equipment their opinions ?I call this a "class act " . Go get em' Bob . Chris.
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    Here is what I can tell you...

    Yes, it is "reset" as you define it. We prefer to think of it as "continuous optimization".

    No, there are no proprietary thermostats. Any old bimetallic or electronic thermostat will do.

    With regard to PhD thing, it became clear in our research that only a small percentage of technicians were using outdoor reset. The associated cost was not the primary reason for this, although it was definitely a factor. The primary reason for the lack of use was complexity. Outdoor reset requires the installation of a sensor, which needs to be positioned correctly, and furthermore requires the technician to adjust the reset ratio. No control that is currently on the market is intuitive, and most require training at the factory schools. Many respondents to our surveys indicated that if more than 6 months transpired between their training session and their use of the technology, they had forgotten the majority of the details.

    If you can use a cell phone and know how a hydronic system works, you can use our control. The set-up uses a menu-system that you select options from. The text display is a 2 line 16 character LCD with backlighting for dim basements.

    There are only 4 buttons to press. No dials, no switches no jumpers, no DIP switches.

    I am the president of InfinityLab, its founder and primary shareholder. I am the head of research and marketing (my personal passions). However, I am backed by a team of engineers, purchasing, operations and production people who are key to the success of our company.

    Best regards

    Bob Tonner, President, InfinityLab Inc.
  • Duncan_2
    Duncan_2 Member Posts: 174
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    Keep us posted.

    Looking forward to more info as it becomes available, Bob. Put me on your list.

    Congratulations on making a great idea become a reality! I like the sound of it.
  • HBW
    HBW Member Posts: 33
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    Sound Like...

    Fuzzy Logic to me.
  • J.C.A.
    J.C.A. Member Posts: 349
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    Sorry Bob,

    I didn't at all mean to slight your work force . Just wanted to let these guys know that your the backbone and the force behind it all . Chris
  • Dave Yates (PAH)
    Dave Yates (PAH) Member Posts: 2,162
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    Humnnnnnn.................

    Your control must be going into (or onto) one manufacturer's line that I'l be retrofitting into an existing field unit in the next few weeks. Your description of the "indoor reset" closely mirrors the description I was given of how this new control will be operating once we change over & re-wire the existing unit.

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  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    That is ok....

    I just thought that it would not be good for employee relations if I took all the credit.

    Thanks Chris

    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab Inc
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    You...

    You are the closest thus far.

    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab Inc.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    Did we talk at RPA

    this spring. Were you showing the control that would interface a furnace with a radiant in one box. A former Erie employee?

    hot rod

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  • jfox
    jfox Member Posts: 44
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    US Patent and Trademark Office

    Could you explain just what requirement of the US Patent and Trademark Office precludes you from explaining this system better? Do you have a patent application pending?

    A sine wave on an oscilloscope, a circuit board and a case are pretty sketchy.

    If you don't measure the outside temperature, how do you modulate the system by variation of the outside temperure?
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    USPTO

    We have some ammendments to make to our Patent Application as a result of further testing and product development. US Patent laws require that no public disclosure of the invention is made prior to submission to the USPTO, otherwise the application will be void.

    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab Inc.
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    Nope...

    That was not me. No one at InfinityLab was employed with any other control manufacturer other that Integrated Control Devices Inc (another control company I own).

    We have designed and manufactured controls (either for production or other uses) for:

    Riello, Italy

    Riello, North America

    R.W. Beckett

    Aero Environmental

    Siemens (Europe only)

    White-Rodgers

    Ecologix Heaating Technologies

    SummerAire

    Weishaupt

    Kerr Heating

    And others...

    Mostly, our controls have been custom designs, but we are now introducing a line of our own with our own brand name on them.


    Best regards

    Bob Tonner, President, InfinityLab Inc.
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    Another Cool Feature that you might like...

    We have taken great pains to ensure that our control can only be worked on by a technician. The set-up menu on the control is password protected. That is, after completing the setup of the boiler control, it will ask you if you want to lock it. If you select "lock", the next time anyone attempts to enter the setup menu, they will be prompted for an "access #". The access number will be the same for all units so that you do not have to be concerned with another tech locking you out. Ultimately, you don't need to worry about little Jimmy or his dad fooling around with your settings once you've put them in. If they don't like the temperature of the DHW, they will have to call you.

    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab Inc
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,860
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    Bob, I'd like to try one too

    please put me on your list.

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    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
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    Make sure you

    built the selling price right to be able to afford a tech support 800 # and knowledgable person on your end. Nothing worse than a tech problem or question with no one to call :)

    If the product is as good as you say, it's the product support that will make or break the product,in my opinion.

    hot rod

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  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    Mr. Steam...

    I'll add you to our contact list.

    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab Inc.
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    Noted!

    Your comments reflect the feelings of all those we surveyed during the development stages of this system.

    Thanks for the input.

    Bob Tonner, President, InfinityLab Inc.
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
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    Logic not really \"fuzzy\"

    but it must be "learned." I spent a few mornings working on an algorithm to do this. Was surprised at how few variables were actually required.

    I did though find a need for an "am I completely satisfied" input.

    Will this device work with a constantly circulating system with only modulating devices (i.e. TRVs & differential pressure bypass)? If it requires an input of "am I completely satisfied" could an outside cutoff be used in lieu of wall thermostat(s)?

    If it works anything like I imagine, it should be inherently able to operate modulating burners as well...that is if there is anything "standard" about the control signal used to modulate the burner.
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    Learning Can be done by a control....

    ...or the designer of the control.

    Humans "learn" some things, like taking our hat off in church, while other things are instinctive like eating as a response to hunger, which was programmed into us by our Designer.

    The good questions you pose require a more direct conversation so that we can better understand each other. I find the printed medium a little limited when it comes to exchanging this level of ideas.

    Please call me at (905) 619-0837 to talk about it. I am in all day, but then I am out for the remainder of this week and next. I return to the office on December 4th.

    Best regards
    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab

    P.S. I didn't say that this was fuzzy logic, I just said that he was closest.
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
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    Learning by the control...

    ...exactly what I meant. "Time" was a key input--and what makes it impossible with mechanical devices.

    Will call later today.

  • Michael - Warm Floors
    Michael - Warm Floors Member Posts: 12
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    Ourdoor reset has always been obsolete!

    It's been obsolete because outdoor temperature is irrelvant. What matters is indoor demand, not how cold it is outside. They do relate, but since insulation standards are generally proportional to winter climates, it's quite common to have the same demand for heat in a house in Alaska as it is in California. Obvious, eh?

    Great idea, Bob; good luck and keep us posted.
    Michael
  • Bob Tonner
    Bob Tonner Member Posts: 64
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    Bingo!

    Bob Tonner
    President
    InfinityLab Inc.
  • John@Reliable
    John@Reliable Member Posts: 379
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    Bob, I see said the blind man!

    I've been thinking about this concept of yours and this post all makes sense of what it will do now,can't wait. John@Reliable
This discussion has been closed.

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