Wrong Emphasis

mp1969

Tradesmen and Contractors
I think far too much time is spent looking for get rich business schemes while the Home Depots and Lowes eat at our markets.
It is time to set up groups of tradesmen,code enforcers and quite possibly insurers to educate the public on the hazards of improperly installed and maintained boilers,HVAC and plumbing equipment.
A joint effort is needed for public education (awareness) and public policing. We need to self police and set our standards to required code standards. Then we must insist on uniform compliance by all suppliers and installers!
If we don't do this the box stores will continue to sell anything and everything if they can do so unchallenged.
We need to demand that the box stores are selling code compliant product and address permit requirements.

Rich K.

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DanHolohan

Who will pay for this?

Some specifics please, Rich.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

how about refusing

to install anything from the big box stores. it's all low quality crap anyway. i've been doing just that for years- it cuts out a lot of headaches. bob

Frank_3

I don't think you're being realistic

It's not HD/etcetera's responsibility to verify that products they sell are being installed or used in a safe and/or code-compliant manner. You don't expect your supply house to send an inspector to every job site to check your work and make sure the correct permits have been obtained, do you? The products on HD/etcetera's shelves are in many cases 100% identical to the product you buy at a supply house. Where a particular manufacturer has chosen to produce a cheapened version of a product for sale through the "box stores", it's the manufacturer's responsibility to produce a code- and standards-compliant product, or label it as non-compliant if that's the case. (Which I doubt is happening.)

Frank_3

I don't think you're being realistic

It's not HD/etcetera's responsibility to verify that products they sell are being installed or used in a safe and/or code-compliant manner. You don't expect your supply house to send an inspector to every job site to check your work and make sure the correct permits have been obtained, do you? The products on HD/etcetera's shelves are in many cases 100% identical to the product you buy at a supply house. Where a particular manufacturer has chosen to produce a cheapened version of a product for sale through the "box stores", it's the manufacturer's responsibility to produce a code- and standards-compliant product, or label it as non-compliant if that's the case. (Which I doubt is happening.)

Chris NJ_2

Uniform policies

I think what is needed here is uniform policies and here is an example. I went in to a "supply house" to purchase a rebuild kit for a McDonnell Miller 47-2. Since they did not know me, I had to show them a copy of my boiler operators license before they would sell it to me. Their reasoning was they don't sell to HO's and be responsible for something going wrong. Yet I can walk into a Big Box home improvement store and buy a boiler with no questions asked!

IMHO, the supply house is right, but this is "their" policy, not a legal requirement. And I can't help but wonder how many HO's walked in to the supply house only to be turned away going instead to the HD and getting what they wanted off the shelf.

heatboy

Probably not...........

the guy who is installing a boiler for $2,500. ;-)

Warm Regards,

hb

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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Unknown

I can tell you this is a tough sell

A recent attempt on my part to get local TV stations to give me some time to talk to homeowners on their station about trades people and what they have to offer was turned down as not be relevent to local stations perceptions of public need. They maintain that the state licenses and requirements for permits give the customer sufficient protection and information as to what is avaialble to them. I am pretty good at selling most ideas and am looking in other directions to do this and also to get young people interested in the trades. I do not have a lot of money which is a definite set back. TV and radio time is expensive and there really is no better way to reach the public. This Old House and other programs sure do help but we need some prime time exposure. I am still working on it but it is tough.

Frank_3

I can see where this could go ...

- Can't sell electrical supplies to anyone but a licensed electrician because of the potential for damage. Has anyone here ever changed a switch, fixture, or circuit breaker in their own home? How would you feel if you were forced to pay a licensed installer to do those things?

- Can't sell automotive parts to anyone but a licensed mechanic. Any racing hobbyists here? Anyone ever rebuild an engine on your own or with non-mechanic friends? Do your own brake jobs?

- What about garden pesticides? What if you couldn't buy those lawn chemicals directly and were forced to have it done by a licensed pesticide guy?

Don't even try to argue that electrical, automotive, or pesticide work doesn't carry the same risk as HVAC work. I'd say that a faulty brake job, improperly installed wiring, or improperly applied pesticide can be just as dangerous to your health and the general public's.

This protectionist mentality just doesn't work in real life. People are capable of much more than what's on their college degree -- if they even have one. You're a licensed plumber? Big woop. I don't need a licensed plumber to install a faucet or sweat a pipe. Same goes for installing a boiler. There's nothing you've learned that I can't learn as well. I can do my research and gain the same knowledge you've got if I so choose. I may not have a piece of paper on my wall to show for it, but that doesn't mean I don't possess the same knowledge and skill set as someone that does.

I'm not going into detail about the economic impact of these ideas, but just consider what might happen to prices if all these things were required to be handled by licensed persons.

Jamie Pompetti

Don't we all already pay for this kind of policing when we pull permits and pay for licensing?

It was always my understanding that the inspectors should check on the jobs when you pull the permit! And when they ride to your job (to check on it) and see other contractors working in that township they should check to see if they have a license and permit.

It’s just a shame that inspectors don’t work like this, that’s what they are paid to do.

PJO

I partially agree, but also...

I respectfully disagree with some of that statement. Installing a boiler is not something 99% of us should do...and none of us would seriously take the time to PROPERLY learn the procedure. Obviously I am a HO and not a contractor. I installed the heat and A/C in my home, but left the boiler and A/C hook-ups and testing to a professional! I'm an (egad!) engineer and did my own design, but I know my limits...and my family is safe.

While sweating pipes is probably okay (mine are ugly), along with changing an outlet, etc. I have to say the boiler work is different...including combustion testing. How many of us truly know about combustion issues (including make-up air, proper set-up, etc.)?

Frank, I applaud your willingness to learn and I also do many things myself. I work on nearly everything on my cars, except brakes and computer related things. Today my tech (Glenn) will do the annual testing of my boiler, and we have discussed changing the set-up a bit, but he has the final say whether it will happen or not...and I gladly write the check for his services.

Just my thoughts, PJO

heatboy

Knowledge and Skill Sets.

I have been playing baseball since I was six years old. When I was in my twenties, I was a very good ball player, but I knew I could never play in the big leagues no matter how much I read or practiced.

Some of the guys here that I admire have been doing this for many years and I can only hope to become as professional as they are. Your comments could be taken as a slight to those here who are the finest contractors I know.

Warm Regards,

hb

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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mp1969

I thank you for the responses and would like to clarify my thoughts. We as tradesmen and inspectors tend to vent and complain amongst ourselves.This may be therapuetic but not getting to the complete audience!
The consumer is part of the overall sales picture and they are confronted and sold items by low wage sales people versus knowledgable industry designers,installers or inspection personel.In other words they are being miss informed and quite possibly being convinced to buy or even install something that may harm them financially and worse physically.
The growth of the box stores is largely fueled by access to materials (and some are indeed quality) by non licensed, non insured, non formally trained and non code complying individuals.
Homeowners/purchasers need to understand that they are hurting themselves by installing non conforming items without benefit of proper inspection. We professionals know that the codes are written due to safety and health hazards. We also know that proper inspection is a way to insure proper installs and product (they keep us honest also). Inspectors see many more installs than just ours and if asked often share their experience and knowledge.
The box stores are here to stay and they continually bring in better quality product. My contention is that they should if they really want credibilty require proper permits.
We are required to do so and our codes are uniformly applied and enforced. We have a right and a responsibility to demand from our lawmakers and enforcement people that the playing field is kept level.
Home Depot is in the business of selling as are other outlets, we don't mind do-it-yourselfers if they comply and protect themslves (and their loved ones) with proper code compliance. While product knowledge is ever more available due to computer access etc. code compliance is more complex to research but vital to safe,efficent and proper installs.
Several ways to do this,periodic printings in newspapers with warnings about getting in over your head!!! Handouts in the parking lots of box stores that point out these concerns .Other forms of educating such as programs open to the public (Home Depots do this every week)!
This is not in any way a condemnation of the box stores as they are thriving and here to stay. This is only a valid concern. If implemented it would indeed protect the consumer and level the playing field.
Consumers and contractors should write or ask what the store's policy is on code compliance!Most often it is the buyer's responsibity, too often permits are not pulled and potential danger lingers. This is not a frabricated fear this is fact!
Home Depot does not threaten me as I see their weaknesses.We can and will compete if we are allowed to compete fairly!!!

MP1969

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heatboy

Rich.

While your assertations are valid and I agrre with your efforts, it's quite possible that the growth of these places is due to one specific reason. The trades, and rightfully so, are not viewed with much respect as skilled professionals. Look around in the supply houses and jobsites you frequent. What do you see? That's why people like the gentleman below feel they can accomplish the same work we can. As much as I don't want to agree with him, I must. The work I see from most of the trade is pretty much........ horrible.

Warm Regards,

hb

"Expert in Silent Warmth"™

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chuck shaw

well said, however

In Massachusetts you must be a licensed plumber (or gasfitter) to obtain a plumbing or gas permit. The code book clearly defines what is considered a minor repair, and not needing a permit (changing washers, repairing pipes and a few other things). Technically, to change a faucet, toilet, dishwasher or other "minor" jobs requires a licensed man. I don't know what an insurance company would say, if there were a problem, and they researched the permit, or lack of it. It would be a shame, if due to the fact that you wanted to save a few dollars, your homeowners policy said "Sorry, you are not covered, no permit". Also comes into play, the matter of public safety. You may not live in your home forever. And the permit/inspection process gives a gaurentee to any prosptive buyer, that at the time of the install it was done to code.

I know codes vary from state to state, and Massachusetts may be the exception. But here, that is the code.

In fact recently the Massachusetts Attorney General stopped the DIY stores from "teaching" people how to install water heaters, because this was encouraging them to "break the law", by violating the code.

Chuck Shaw
Old Yankee Plumbing/Heating
W. Wareham, MA

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Cosmo

That hits a nerve....

I applaud Mass. for passing this law. A clerk in a home improvement store has ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS explaining to a homeowner how to do a plumbing,heating,cooling repair, or installation. How many times have we seen people forget what we tell them, so they just wing it and hope for the best. You would think that these places would instruct their employees not to try to explain to a home owner how to do the repair on a mechanical system just for the liability involved. How many times have we gone to a house for a service call to find relief valves with a plug teflon taped on, wires run through boxes with no strain relief and the ground wire bent back, boilers relatively new boilers die because the homeowner was draining water out the rad vents everyday to keep warm, toilets, sinks, etc roughed in with no vents, the list can go on and on. We need this law in Pennsylvania TODAY. In the old days homeowners working on their own mech system was prevalent but most of time lack of being able to work with cast iron, steel pipe, etc kept DIY's out of big repairs due to tool cost barriers. Those that could borrow the tools were probably a little more knowledgable, or had their proffesional buddies with them. Today with pvc pipe and fittings, cheap little propane torches, fernco fittings, stainless steel flex. tubes, etc.....there is no longer a tool cost barrier to doing your own work. I am not sure how we can make things safer, manufacturers will always look for ways to make our job easier and these products will find their way to the DIY. I would like to require a permit by a proffesional for every repair, or installation job out there....but good luck getting this passed, and I have been known to tinker with my own truck (YEARS BACK when I had the time, now it is cheaper to have a mech don it for me), technically if I was an idiot I could have endangered more than just myself by not putting brake pads on right, etc. I don't have the answer, but that does'nt mean that I won't voice my opinions, I hold my responsibility as a professional very seriously and can't stand to see my "paper on the wall" being made fun of.
Casmos Valavanis
Dependable P.H.C. Inc.

Mark J Strawcutter

middle ground

Where I live there is no licensing for electricians. But work must be inspected. That seems to be a reasonable "middle ground" between unregulated DIY free-for-all at one end and restrictive licensing/permit/inspection for everything at the other. Same could be applied to plumbing and HVAC work.

With certain major/critical items - water heater, boiler, A/C condensor etc - the supplier (supply house, big box whatever) could be required to report the purchase to the local permit/inspection agency.

This would allow the supply houses to sell to anyone (he says while ducking for cover). Should the HO/DIYer get the same price as a regular customer in the trade? no. Should he receive a free over-the-counter education? no. Should he be able to particpate in workshops/seminars offered by the supply house? no. But if he walks in and says "I want a widget" (or LWCO or whatever) then he should be able to buy it.

Mark

Frank_3

Patrick, I had three contractors come to the house to quote me on installing the boiler as well as some other work. Not one of them would be doing a "burner tune-up". The burners come pre-set at the factory for the boiler I'll be using, and the boiler installers all said the same thing. "After we do the install you'll have to call your service technician to fine tune the combustion."

I don't mean to insult their skills but if the contractor only intends to come in, rip out the old system, pipe in the new one, bolt on the burner, and walk away, then why do I need to pay their prices? One guy wanted over $3000 for labor only, plus he was looking at a very healthy margin on the boiler and other equipment, and he didn't even include piping and fittings in his price. So I would've been going in without knowing the actual price I'd be expected to pay at the end.

I will give that one contractor credit for at least doing a basic heat loss calculation and sizing the boiler correctly. On the other hand, though, he charged $250 for his "design" service which turned out to be about two pages of useful information and 10 pages of fluff. I later got a more accurate calc done for free at a supply house (and the supply house guy gave me a good 1 1/2 hours of his time). Incidentally, I had already bought the software online for $39 (Hvac-Calc) so I knew what to expect from those heat loss numbers, which is also how I knew the other quotes I got were for oversized systems.

Certainly, I don't recommend that everyone get involved in a project like installing their own boiler. I'll also never do it at anyone else's house but mine. However, I've spent months of reading about heating system design, pored over the manufacturer's application notes, read through the code requirements, and spoken with people at supply houses that don't treat "homeowner" clients like imbeciles. I'm very confident that this is something I can do and do safely.

P.S. -- My sweat joints look ugly too, but they hold water and who's gonna see it in the boiler room anyway? :-)

Frank_3

Patrick, I had three contractors come to the house to quote me on installing the boiler as well as some other work. Not one of them would be doing a "burner tune-up". The burners come pre-set at the factory for the boiler I'll be using, and the boiler installers all said the same thing. "After we do the install you'll have to call your service technician to fine tune the combustion."

I don't mean to insult their skills but if the contractor only intends to come in, rip out the old system, pipe in the new one, bolt on the burner, and walk away, then why do I need to pay their prices? One guy wanted over $3000 for labor only, plus he was looking at a very healthy margin on the boiler and other equipment, and he didn't even include piping and fittings in his price. So I would've been going in without knowing the actual price I'd be expected to pay at the end.

I will give that one contractor credit for at least doing a basic heat loss calculation and sizing the boiler correctly. On the other hand, though, he charged $250 for his "design" service which turned out to be about two pages of useful information and 10 pages of fluff. I later got a more detailed calc done for free at a supply house (and the supply house guy gave me a good 1 1/2 hours of his time). Incidentally, I had already bought the software online for $39 (Hvac-Calc) so I knew what to expect from those heat loss numbers, which is also how I knew the other quotes I got were for oversized systems.

Certainly, I don't recommend that everyone get involved in a project like installing their own boiler. I'll also never do it at anyone else's house but mine. However, I've spent months of reading about heating system design, pored over the manufacturer's application notes, read through the code requirements, and spoken with people at supply houses that don't treat "homeowner" clients like imbeciles. I'm very confident that this is something I can do and do safely.

P.S. -- My sweat joints look ugly too, but they hold water and who's gonna see it in the boiler room anyway? :-)

Unknown

What boiler

What boiler has a burner set up at the factory for your draft and make-up air conditions?

How would the factory be able to do that?

Noel

Frank_3

Dome friends of mine bought a house a couple of years ago and it turned out the folks they were buying from had finished the space over the garage without permits. So, with the money from escrow, my friend called the Town and asked how he could get the room legalized. Naturally, he needed an electrical and plumbing inspection. How do they do that without breaking down the walls?

The electrical inspector removes some of the receptacles to look at what wiring is visible. The plumbing inspector found the bathroom vent pipe in the attic and had my friend make some changes there. In the end, the Certificate of Occupancy was issued without anyone really knowing whether the bulk of the work was performed according to code.

Where's the protection for the next buyer, or even my friend, in that sort of system? What insurance company could deny coverage with a legally issued C.O.?

Frank_3

Some friends of mine bought a house a couple of years ago and it turned out the folks they were buying from had finished the space over the garage without permits. So, with the money from escrow, my friend called the Town and asked how he could get the room legalized. Naturally, he needed an electrical and plumbing inspection. How do they do that without breaking down the walls?

The electrical inspector removes some of the receptacles to look at what wiring is visible. The plumbing inspector found the bathroom vent pipe in the attic and had my friend make some changes there. In the end, the Certificate of Occupancy was issued without anyone really knowing whether the bulk of the work was performed according to code.

Where's the protection for the next buyer, or even my friend, in that sort of system? What insurance company could deny coverage with a legally issued C.O.?

Bob Bona_4

well

Frank, you ARE insulting our trade. "Just rip out the old boiler, pipe in the new one and walk away". Just like that.

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Frank_3

I don't think I've lessened the skill set or knowledge of anyone here, or in the industry in general. What I have said is that the knowledge and skills that a contractor has are not beyond the reach of anybody outside the industry. If they were then how would anyone else gain entry to that industry? And why is it not possible for someone who has that knowledge and skill to choose not to enter the industry at all?

On the other hand -- if we're talking about being slighted -- many of the contractors here persist in referring to "homeowners" as people of sub-standard intelligence.

Which is a greater insult: a "homeowner" who claims that he can acquire the same skills and knowledge as a contractor, or a contractor that claims he has skills and knowledge that are well beyond the reach of a "homeowner"?

Personally, I'd like to think that I'm not so arrogant as to think that there's nobody out there in the world that is not -- or cannot be -- as good or better than I am at the profession I've chosen even if they've chosen a different profession for themselves. It's known as being humble and it's a trait I've found many people here to be lacking.

I'll ignore the subtle implication in your comment about playing in the big leagues, and I'm happy to hear that you can be honest with yourself about your own abilities. However, do you think there aren't any folks around that do have what it takes to be a professional athlete that choose instead to be, say, a lawyer or a policeman or even a plumber?

Mark Hunt

Now I wonder


did Frank do a depressurization test to make sure that his new boiler is venting properly?

Did he check to see if the burner was operating properly?

Does Frank know how much CO is being produced by his new creation?

Does frank know how to check for any of these things?

Does Frank know WHY these things are important?

So he has a system that doesn't leak water. Great!!

Does it leak combustion products?

EASY AINT IT!!!!


Mark H

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Frank_3

The first guy that came to the house (not the $3000 labor guy) almost described it exactly that way. He said he'd be in and out in one day. Just cut the pipes, maybe move them a little bit, and put the new boiler in the same place as the old one.

It's not me that's insulting the trade, it's the trade that insulting the trade.

Frank_3

The first guy that came to the house (not the $3000 labor guy) almost described it exactly that way. He said he'd be in and out in one day. Just cut the pipes -- maybe move them a little bit -- re-use the existing circulators, add a zone for the indirect, and put the new boiler in the same place as the old one.

It's not me that's insulting the trade, it's the trade that insulting the trade.

Frank_3

Noel, I'm just repeating what the three contractors said to me. That is, they would start the system up and it was my responsibility to call in a service technician to do the combustion check and all those other wonderful things. And I did say that I plan on calling a service tech to do those things.

Dennis - Reliable Services

A smart saying from a DEAD MAN!

In my area (Philadelphia,PA) most suppliers do sell to home owners and others, they no longer except returns on electrical components from these customers.

With the unlimited access to parts and equipment and their return policy, Home Depot has spawned a new wave of goof offs, and screw ups into the contracting business.

This is good! Each generation must learn its lesson, "You Get What You Pay For".
My business is booming, we do not advertise in the phone book, our customers are mostly referals, some from suppliers who have sold equipment to these people.

They have had it! Please! just make it work, we haven't had heat or cooling in 3 weeks!
I will come to the rescue!
Last week I removed a Brand X Home Depot gas furnace that was 3 years old, and most of the ducting in the basement.
We installed a new furnace that had half the heating input, for 4 times what the original goof ball charged. They have referred me to two other neighboors, who have agreed to let me show them how wonderful I am.

Some very smart dead man once said "What We Learn From History Is That, We Don't Learn A Damn Thing From History"

Mark Hunt

You are right Frank


Lots of bad contractors out there. I see them every day.

And most of the guys in my area have as much knowledge about the things I mentioned as you do.

I have spent a great deal of my time and my money learning about things that most people don't even think about.

So you made a water tight solder joint. To steal a phrase, You're a licensed plumber? Big woop. I have certifications and lisences that you have never even heard of. A leaky water pipe probably won't kill your family, but that flue pipe you hooked up can.

That gas valve you piped can.

Don't sell the pros short just because you called three schmuckos.

I hope you have very good CO alarms in your house.

Mark H

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chuck shaw

In my opinion

the inspectors didnt properly do their job. If everyone involved in the process of building that room had done their job it would not be an issue. I depends on local codes. What a homeowner is and isnt allowed to do. You have given a perfect example of why someone who isnt qualified to do a job shouldnt do it. He left a bathroom "blind vented", a build up of sewer gas, could have caused a methane explosion. If it were here, and if I were the inspector(to big ifs), I would have had them take out walls. Of course, the experperianced eye of a licensed plumber, who has become plumbing inspector may have seen things that were visible, under the bathroom that allowed him to know what was happening in the walls. You have just shown us another example of the importance of job experiance. Someone was probally afraid to climb a ladder to cut a vent through the roof. Another person who knew just enough to get the job done improperly.

Chuck Shaw

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mp1969

Need Work?

Frank S.
It sounds like you indeed installed your own boiler and seem to have done so sucessfully. Would you care to post your abilities, certifications, licenses and referrals so the wet heads could accurately get a feel for your abilities?
We have a severe shortage of quality installers and it sounds like you feel you may be qualified! You may be a diamond in the rough and many contractors would be willing to polish your skills!
Up to the challenge? Burns,cuts,middle of the night calls,continuing education, inferior materials, customer complaints, insurance requirements,codes, inspectors etc. etc. etc.
Waiting for your response!

MP 1969

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Mark J Strawcutter

at least he recognized

that they are schmuckos. I feel sorry for the masses out there that don't know any better and think those schmuckos represent state-of-the-trade.

Mark

Frank_3

Mark H., first to answer your questions: No, no, no, no, and yes.

Two things though: a) I did mention that I'm planning on calling my service technician to do those things, and b) I see nothing that could prevent me from learning how to do all those things. And, as you point out below, there are lots of contractors out there that would answer "no" to those same questions.

Maybe you can explain why you feel that it is not possible for a non-contractor to have the same learning abilities as a contractor? Why do you feel that all "homeowners" are such imbeciles that they couldn't do the same work, know the same things, and meet the same codes that you do?

PJO

If I had three different contractors come in...

and none of them did combustion testing that would worry me. I agree with you about the heatloss issue, but would seriously question any statement of "not doing a tune-up"...what if your area elevation is different than the factory? What if you don't have enough make-up air or venting capacity? What if the factory slipped a little on this one? Just some questions that smack me in the face right away...that a good combustion test might reveal.

I agree with your statement of you being able to learn anything you want in the trade, but you could easily miss something that a tech might have seen sixteen jobs ago and remembered...and not seen since. There's too much potential energy in the fuel for my personal comfort...and that includes my oil.

Here's an example; I was bleeding the oil line out a couple of years ago because one of my tanks emptied while I was gone overnight (Doh!), and it took a while...hit the reset three or four times, knowing that more than once might not be the best thing...you Wallies know what happened when the boiler (direct vent) fired again, right? That baby was a smokin'! I knew enough to call Glenn (my tech), and he steered me through it, but what if someone else hit the reset fifteen times and fired up the boiler, without having a tech to rely on/take care of it? What if they didn't even think about a tech's help? I would not want to speculate...but I bet it happens pretty often.

BTW, Glenn did his annual visit on Friday and she's purring along with a down-sized nozzle...86% efficient (from his Testo) ain't bad for a cast iron non-condenser, eh?

Take Care, PJO

Mark Hunt

Frank


No where did I say that you are an imbecile. I am sure that you probably could learn to do what I do.

But it isn't something that you learn over night or even over a year.

The carbon monoxide that is produced from combustion appliances is not to be taken lightly. It could kill everyone in the house before a service technician could get there to do an inspection. Even then you must be sure that the technician knows what they are doing.

Please do not take my points as an attack because they are not. I see far more DIY installs that have gone bad then I do professional installs.

This is a great country and you can do what ever you want. I wouldn't change that for the world.

But I will continue to voice strong reservations about DIY installs of combustion appliances. There are simply too many things that can go wrong very quickly.

Best wishes.

Mark H



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Joe Grosso

Stop bang your head against the wall!!!!

Gents,
You are not going to win your discussion with this man.Just because he had a couple of ding dongs come to his home and give him a price on a half of job this does not say all of us are like this.This site proves it.I take great pride in all of my boiler installs and do the setup and testing myself.There will always be a segment of people that can do it as well as pros.I am not a auto, electrical or ac tech and when I have a problem I call a pro.That is all they do and they damn well can fix it safely.I am a boiler man period.All I do is service and install oil & gas heating systemsand yes frank I know more about boiler systems than you will ever know because not only is this my job but I love it and want to be the best at my craft that I can be.

jim_14

You guys are right. You can never beat a pro at his own game, no matter what you think you know. Theres an old saying out there "ive forgotten things you will never even know".

But unfortunatley ,theres alot of people calling themselves Pro's and Joe Homeowner cant tell them apart.